mjp
Founding member
Turns out that now I can bring myself to stick it in the scanner.
The shit shits was molested in one of the posthumous collections, but I include it here anyway, because the Internet never runs out of ink.
Last edited:
1970 - Runcible Spoon - dooby do do do, shoot the goat through the head, the vast area of space (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter mjp
- Start date
The shit shits was molested in one of the posthumous collections, but I include it here anyway, because the Internet never runs out of ink.
PhillyDave
“The essential doesn't change.” Beckett
"because the Internet never runs out of ink." Hi-larious. It's funny 'cuz it's true ;)
PhillyDave
“The essential doesn't change.” Beckett
Skygazer,
I assume it's J Martin's sloppiness or control issues. i asked myself and the forum the same question all the time. Martin never "edited" in this fashion when Buk was alive, so why now? Argh!!! is all i can think to say.
I assume it's J Martin's sloppiness or control issues. i asked myself and the forum the same question all the time. Martin never "edited" in this fashion when Buk was alive, so why now? Argh!!! is all i can think to say.
What was the last published poem that was un-fouled by JM? Is it so now? from Betting? I have recently plowed through most of the posthumous stuff and can find little that sounds like Hank. I wanted very much to find value in them but really can't. It's like having John Lennon's last lyrics re-written and sung by Andy Gibb.
mjp
Founding member
Betting on the Muse doesn't show any evidence of tampering, but it was probably compiled and locked down while Bukowski was still around. The very next book, Bone Palace Ballet is where you start to see the damage. And by the next poetry collection, What Matters Most, the scorched earth policy is in full swing.
Those links demonstrate what happened painfully and incontrovertibly. For anyone who wishes to remain a Martin apologist, I would ask them how they would explain what those pages show.
But again, I'm not sure the "why" matters. Knowing why doesn't change anything. I don't see the problem being "fixed" any time soon (if ever), so making people aware of it is the only thing that can really be done. Unfortunately, most people won't care enough to read about the books or research the books, they'll just take them at face value, that they are Bukowski's work.
Which is why I never shut up about it (to the dismay of many of you, I know). I want Google to be littered with links to posts/threads like this. And articles like this. The information should be readily available so people can draw their own conclusions about those books.
Gary Eisenberg
RIP
I have to admit (and I have been one of those apologists for John Martin), the evidence is damning. With all the mss that is out there, I would imagine that there will be many more comparisons that will show unfavorable changes to Bukowksi's work. Certainly no changes should EVER be made to ANY poem after its author is no longer among the living. That is completely unacceptable. MAYBE it would be defensible for a NOVEL - but NEVER for a POEM. And I agree with you, MJP, that there is no excuse for this. John Martin had the ultimate responsibility for content at press time. SOMEBODY (and that somebody is, no doubt, John Martin) knows what was in the original typed mss submitted by Bukowski. If Martin didn't like those poems, he could simply have NOT published them. But he should NEVER have rewritten one single poem. And if he DID, he should have submitted EACH and EVERY SINGLE poem to Bukowski for approval before publishing his "improved" version. I have had a number of my own written works published in magazines (on booze, not surprisingly). My editors made changes that I didn't like, but they did have the decency to share those changes before press time; I could have canceled the contract and taken back my work, if I had felt strongly enough about it. But because the articles were service features (not my short stories or poems, for goodness sakes!), I assented, keeping my original versions for future publication one fine day. I cannot even begin to imagine how Bukowski would feel if he were around to see this type of damage done. (I read your example in the article link to "Dirty Poem" and was APPALLED by what I discovered.) I'm with you on this one, 100 percent. Sing it from the mountaintop! And keep singing it. BTW, the same sort of carnage happened to one of my favorite composers, Anton Bruckner. Some fellow, an "editor" of sorts, made mincemeat of his symphonies. There are now two editions from which to choose: The Nowak edition and the Hass edition. Haas was the good guy. He left Bruckner's work intact. Nowak made cuts as he felt appropriate - long after Bruckner's demise. This sort of thing is reprehensible. OK, enough of my rant..
Nothwithstanding your use of ALL CAPS (which I will attribute to your complete and utter dissatisfaction with Martin's edits which has left you apoplectic), it's good to see someone come in and recognize and speak, brother. We've been bandying this subject about for a while. Nothing to do but bitch about it, really.
Now, please tell me a bit more about Bruckner. Great symphonies. Not my #1 in that genre, but what are the differences? Tempo (very common)? Re-arrangement (unforgiveable)? Re-scoring (one could argue that Ravel's re-scoring of Mussorsgsky's (sic) Pictures at an Exhibition for piano was far more effective for orchestra; or for ELP for that matter)?
Now, please tell me a bit more about Bruckner. Great symphonies. Not my #1 in that genre, but what are the differences? Tempo (very common)? Re-arrangement (unforgiveable)? Re-scoring (one could argue that Ravel's re-scoring of Mussorsgsky's (sic) Pictures at an Exhibition for piano was far more effective for orchestra; or for ELP for that matter)?
Gary Eisenberg
RIP
Dear Purple Stickpin (I love that handle - one of Buk's most hilarious rants was about that purple stickpin fellow that was involved with one of his women - I think the wealthy Texan, brain sluggish, cannot remember),
Sorry about the ALL CAPS (it is indeed rude - but you are right, I am apoplectic about it, especially since I've been an apologist for Martin and I now realize that my perspective was, shall we say, somewhat distorted. Hat's off to MJP for shining the bright light where it needs to be pointed.
About Bruckner...he is definitely an acquired taste. Mahler is much more accessible. What Nowak did to Bruckner was eliminate (I almost used all caps, fie for shame - then I realized that there are tools here for emphasis - well duh!) the sections that he thought were superfluous. Now see, there's nothing wrong with doing one's own arrangement. Webern did that with Bach, for example. But the cards are on the table, so to speak. What makes Martin's meddling so malicious is that he is passing the poems of as being genuine Bukowski, when he has actually changed them. That is more than just plain wrong. It is blasphemous. Nowak may have changed some of the interpretative markings in the score, perhaps. For example, changing a mezzo-piano to a subito piano (medium soft to very soft), or perhaps a tempo marking. That would also be inappropriate, of course. But the worst thing is to simply cut what you don't like, and pass it off as genuine Bruckner. Same applies to Martin's shennanigans. What I saw in MJP's comparison made my blood pressure jump like a bottle rocket. Example: The original reads, "I don't suffer getting these words down" and the "revised" version reads "I don't suffer serious artistic cramps." That does not sound like Bukowski at all! That's not his voice! Holy shit! Christ, there goes my blood pressure again! I must say, I missed all of this, because I own very few of the posthumous publications. I was well aware that there were tons of poems that were left unpublished, but I somehow figured that the best ones made it to press before Bukowksi left us. Now I'm wondering about that. And yes, it does bother me that John Martin didn't imbibe. Not that he had to be a heavy drinker...but...teetotaler? I wonder how those meetings between them went? On the other side, of course, I know that Buk and Linda were mighty grateful to Martin for his remarkable business acumen. While the big sales were indeed in Europe, Martin's enterprise built a strong foundation - moreso than City Lights or Loujon could have ever come close to doing. But damn, couldn't he have just left well enough alone with the content of Buk's poems? Very disappointing, to put it mildly.
Well, I didn't say much about Bruckner. I'm a trumpet player, so one of things that brings me to Bruckner (and Wagner for that matter) is their use of brass on the orchestration pallet. Nothing against the string boys, I like that stuff too. BTW, Ravel is considered one of the finest orchestrators that ever walked this planet. Even the small ensemble stuff is tremendous. Check out his string quartet - do it with a tall Belgian abbey ale. You'll enjoy the experience, trust me.
Sorry about the ALL CAPS (it is indeed rude - but you are right, I am apoplectic about it, especially since I've been an apologist for Martin and I now realize that my perspective was, shall we say, somewhat distorted. Hat's off to MJP for shining the bright light where it needs to be pointed.
About Bruckner...he is definitely an acquired taste. Mahler is much more accessible. What Nowak did to Bruckner was eliminate (I almost used all caps, fie for shame - then I realized that there are tools here for emphasis - well duh!) the sections that he thought were superfluous. Now see, there's nothing wrong with doing one's own arrangement. Webern did that with Bach, for example. But the cards are on the table, so to speak. What makes Martin's meddling so malicious is that he is passing the poems of as being genuine Bukowski, when he has actually changed them. That is more than just plain wrong. It is blasphemous. Nowak may have changed some of the interpretative markings in the score, perhaps. For example, changing a mezzo-piano to a subito piano (medium soft to very soft), or perhaps a tempo marking. That would also be inappropriate, of course. But the worst thing is to simply cut what you don't like, and pass it off as genuine Bruckner. Same applies to Martin's shennanigans. What I saw in MJP's comparison made my blood pressure jump like a bottle rocket. Example: The original reads, "I don't suffer getting these words down" and the "revised" version reads "I don't suffer serious artistic cramps." That does not sound like Bukowski at all! That's not his voice! Holy shit! Christ, there goes my blood pressure again! I must say, I missed all of this, because I own very few of the posthumous publications. I was well aware that there were tons of poems that were left unpublished, but I somehow figured that the best ones made it to press before Bukowksi left us. Now I'm wondering about that. And yes, it does bother me that John Martin didn't imbibe. Not that he had to be a heavy drinker...but...teetotaler? I wonder how those meetings between them went? On the other side, of course, I know that Buk and Linda were mighty grateful to Martin for his remarkable business acumen. While the big sales were indeed in Europe, Martin's enterprise built a strong foundation - moreso than City Lights or Loujon could have ever come close to doing. But damn, couldn't he have just left well enough alone with the content of Buk's poems? Very disappointing, to put it mildly.
Well, I didn't say much about Bruckner. I'm a trumpet player, so one of things that brings me to Bruckner (and Wagner for that matter) is their use of brass on the orchestration pallet. Nothing against the string boys, I like that stuff too. BTW, Ravel is considered one of the finest orchestrators that ever walked this planet. Even the small ensemble stuff is tremendous. Check out his string quartet - do it with a tall Belgian abbey ale. You'll enjoy the experience, trust me.
See, mjp? One at a time is all it takes.
And thanks for the tip on Ravel. Of course I know Bolero and the scoring of Pictures..., but nothing else of his comes to mind. String quartets are among my favorite genre, with Schnittke, Bartok, Szymanowski, Janacek, Schoenberg, and Webern, and Berg among my favorites. I played double bass in a local symphony for several years, but I've found that my greatest joy comes from playing improvisational music.
And yes, the Purple Stickpin episode was when he bought the snails and what not from the gourmet section of the market and tried to serve them to Barbara Frye in Post Office. Fictional or real, it is an amusing scene, no doubt.
Gary Eisenberg
RIP
I am grateful to MJP, indeed. And one-at-a-time is what it's all about.
On music: My favorite movement of the Ravel quarter is the pizzicato movement. Breathtaking. Mssr. Stickpin, you have very refined/rarefied musical taste. Not too many folks know the music of Schnittke and Szymanowski. I love the music of every single composer you have cited. And oh, those Bartok quarters. Talk about brooding music - perfect for a read of Bukowski. Sounds like we have a thing or two in common. I, too, prefer improvisational music. I've been playing jazz and salsa professionally for the past four decades; but like you, I did a symphonic stint. Of course it doesn't come close to paying the rent. But that's another story.
Are you familiar with the work of Schreker, Zemlinsky, Viktor Ullman, and others who were banned by the idiot Nazis? There is a lot of good music there, and given your described tastes, I think you'll enjoy exploring. Also a Swiss composer by the name of Ottmar Schoeck. Ok, enough of my music prattle - this is, after all, a Bukowski forum. (But I suppose I can half-assedly justify this diversion by asserting that Buk did love orchestral music - still enough is enough.)
One more thing: Thank you for reminding me, it was indeed in Post Office - one of my favorite Bukowski works. That book has gotten me though many a tough time....
g
On music: My favorite movement of the Ravel quarter is the pizzicato movement. Breathtaking. Mssr. Stickpin, you have very refined/rarefied musical taste. Not too many folks know the music of Schnittke and Szymanowski. I love the music of every single composer you have cited. And oh, those Bartok quarters. Talk about brooding music - perfect for a read of Bukowski. Sounds like we have a thing or two in common. I, too, prefer improvisational music. I've been playing jazz and salsa professionally for the past four decades; but like you, I did a symphonic stint. Of course it doesn't come close to paying the rent. But that's another story.
Are you familiar with the work of Schreker, Zemlinsky, Viktor Ullman, and others who were banned by the idiot Nazis? There is a lot of good music there, and given your described tastes, I think you'll enjoy exploring. Also a Swiss composer by the name of Ottmar Schoeck. Ok, enough of my music prattle - this is, after all, a Bukowski forum. (But I suppose I can half-assedly justify this diversion by asserting that Buk did love orchestral music - still enough is enough.)
One more thing: Thank you for reminding me, it was indeed in Post Office - one of my favorite Bukowski works. That book has gotten me though many a tough time....
g
Now we have the owner ball-washing the mods. It must be a long arm to reach to Nova Scotia and the UK. :eek: But ball-washing is good, unless we end up with the heartbreak of psoriasis.
Zemlinsky I have; SQ No 1, Maiblumen bluhten uberall, SQ No 2, SQ No 3, Two Movements for SQ and SQ No 4. In an odd way, it's not as accessible as Schnittke to me. I like the out stuff.
Dead crazy jams, etc. I asked my wife to get me Viktor Ullman for Solstice (OK, Xmas for the rest of you, or Kwanza, or Birth of Jaime Fisk, or whatever; we celebrate winter solstice in this house, dammit), but she blew it off. So, I need to hunt that down.
Schreker, Schoeck? Now I have a hunt; thanks.
Last edited:
mjp
Founding member
Or you have an "owner" who doesn't want to take credit for everyone else's work and insight. I've always credited the members of this forum for anything good that comes from it. And I seem to recall your name in the database credits...
;)
Gary Eisenberg
RIP
Well, my proverbial hat (I don't actually own a hat) is off to one and all who have taken the time and trouble to do the forensic work!
GE: My pleasure. There are still more. Perhaps we should exchange private email address so's not to piss of the folks who really want to read about Bukowski, as opposed to arcane composers :jesus: (This the first time I've used one of these "emoticon" things. I've invented my own, but I'm too damned lazy to insert right now (ok, too damned intoxicato, to be truthful about it).
Last edited by a moderator:
some here like to read of both.
so maybe just make a new thread for these things instead of 'hiding' your insights from us by using private emails.
PhillyDave
“The essential doesn't change.” Beckett
What roni said. I love music (mostly rock 'n' roll & it's sub-genres) but appriciate any kind that's actually good/well done. Continue with yr classical music insights please.
Gary Eisenberg
RIP
That makes good sense to me. We shall see how things evolve...
Actually, this forum is rather understanding about off-topic meanderings. Often the meandering section will be clipped out and started into a new thread by the mods. But, point taken. I'll start a new thread. in the Music, Movies, TV forum.
Done: https://bukowskiforum.com/threads/arcane-composers.7968/#post-131991
Done: https://bukowskiforum.com/threads/arcane-composers.7968/#post-131991
Last edited:
Similar threads
