... a minor tiff ...

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BicycleTragedy

#1
I'm sure everyone will hate this (no offense intended though), but being a huge Morrissey fan and a huge Bukowski fan, here's something I put together a few months back, when I was bored and feeling romantic.

The song is called Seasick Yet Still Docked, written by Morrissey (lyrics) and Alain Whyte (music) and it originally appeared on a 1992 LP called Your Arsenal. This version, though, is from a soundboard recording from a 2009 performance at the BBC Theater. I took audio clips from several Bukowski themed films/recordings, and interspersed them into the audio of the music track.

The bookend samples are from the closing scene of Barfly. The bit that plays after the lyrics finish, maybe three fourths through the piece, is from the unemployment office scene in Factotum. This is followed by an excerpt of the Run With the Hunted reading of The Genius of the Crowd.

Maybe you won't like it, but I think it is a passable contender for your search for a song that typifies Bukowski's life themes. Even though one might NEVER link Morrissey and Bukowski thematically, I can say -being very familiar with both- their work shares many identical intrinsic themes: contempt for society, apprehension of women, massive depression, unmitigated loneliness, disdain for authority...and this song, in particular, is about drinking yourself to death to escape unrequited desire. I was reading Women and Factotum and a lot of the prose recalled the lyrics to this song: sleeping all day, being unable to find compatibility with women, drinking to lessen the pain of living...all that kind of thing. So I put this together one afternoon to amuse myself.

The mix didn't come out exactly like I'd wanted, but it's decent for what I was trying to do. I'm not professional, I was just fucking around with Nero. Anyway take it or leave it. Hope it helps.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/x3zanv
 
B

BicycleTragedy

#3
Yeah, those superfluous expressions are really handy when you're feeling self conscious.
 

nervas

more crickets than friends
Over 1000 posts
#4
Thanks for the choice.
Dammit, I thought that was so funny, I HAD to find where take it or leave it was mentioned in the post... My eyes betrayed me again, after reading the whole post, I saw it was at the end of the post!!! Ah, I just wanted to be offered the choice!!!!
 
B

BicycleTragedy

#5
Yeah, I said, "take it or leave it," feeling self-conscious about something I did, privately, and then later offered up in public. And predictably, I'm mocked for it...and so, assuming the same beforehand, I utilized a self-defense cliche expression in advance.

Ha ha. You got me.

But you quote fucking Pearl Jam. So, for however pathetic I am...I'm just saying.
 

mjp

So much been said and so little been done
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#6
Just so we're clear - I, for one, didn't mock you for being insecure or for anything you said, but rather for what you did, which I am quite certain (without ever hearing it) is shit. I know that not because Morrisseee is shit all by himself, but because grafting some Bukowski reading - or worse yet, some ac-tors mumbling movie dialog - over any song, even the world's best song, would be shit, so grafting that stuff to something as deplorably useless as Morrissey can only increase the shittiness exponentially out to infinity.

You know, just so we understand each other.

That first part is a couple of big run on sentences on purpose, because that's how I imagine fans of Morrissey talk about him, all excited and breathless, and peeing a little bit into their tight, black EMO pants.

Insecurity is understandable, and even cute. This little audio stinkbomb is inexcusable. Which again, I say without hearing it.
 
#7
So lets get this correct then, MJP dosent like Morrissey so hence forth everyone else is wrong. just because he knows line 16 of a second edition version of a envelope that Bukowski once wrote on and then decided to throw away, he has now become a music critic.
What sort of Music do you like MJP? you catagorized all Moz fans as Emo even though he was around long before that scene ever existed and has created far more than you ever will of any worth.Emo is the last word that i would use to describe a indie artist from England who detests labelling his music.

And Emo's (not that i think you have ever met one,more likely you just get bitter about young people having fun) would never in a million years dream of listening to him.

But hey, you know Buks inside leg measurements so your obviously completely correct and we should all bow down to your opinions.

tosser
 
B

BicycleTragedy

#8
This little audio stinkbomb is inexcusable. Which again, I say without hearing it.
I remember being 17 and how I would have taken what you said as a personal affront on a par with the murder of a family member. That was a long time ago.

But, at this age, I totally respect even the most vicious attacks on Morrissey. You don't like him, you hate him, you think he's shit: that's fine. You are entitled to your opinions, and god knows that Morrissey inspires some of the most hateful criticisms ever to leap forth from the human tongue.

As far as what you say about his fans, well, based on my experience with them, either in line at shows, or public forums, or whatever: I really can't say much in opposition to your comments; most of them are indeed total fucking wankers. I have met a few exceptions. Very few. For the most part, though, they are idiot sycophants who have no ability to be balanced, critical, or rational about Morrissey's work, and would happily mount his excrement in a glass jar on their mantle without thinking twice. I think they are pathetic, almost as bad as Deadheads. Almost.

The song was put up here in regard to the poster's initial request. Not because I thought I was in friendly musical territory with the other posters. I assumed the bulk of the forum members-especially you- would give me unmitigated grief for posting that entry. Why you waited, I don't know, but you've certainly made up for it, and besides, better late than never.

As far as you ripping apart something you've never heard: I also understand the propensity for this kind of criticism. I have judged many books by many covers. I've never regretted it or looked back. It's what people do. If you already know you think Morrissey is shit, it would be a total waste of time to download and play the song. And, hating Morrissey as much as you do, and loving Bukowski as much as you do, there is no way for even the notion of the song to be seen as anything other than a travesty, in your eyes. So why would you listen to it?

In the world of publicly expressed opinions thrown around on the internet, I've learned you have to have a hell of a thick skin or else you'll be ripped apart by guys who for whatever reason need to beat the living shit out of you from behind their screens. If you're one of those guys, mjp, that's fine too. This is still a hell of a fanstastic site you've got here, and based on various other posts of yours that I've read, you have some good goddamned taste in music and TV. So if you hate Morrissey, that's awesome. I'm pretty sure neither one of us is going to lose sleep over it.

Exactly why you felt the need to take such a caustic shit on me, I am not really sure, but if you feel better having written it, that is what's important.

Mjp is not a tosser, and he has a right to his opinion. And he's got very good taste, as far as I can tell. He just hates Morrissey. Don't start bullshit here, for christ's sake, it's just an internet forum. Live and let live. Don't be 14.
 

hank solo

Just practicin' steps and keepin' outta the fights
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#9
I like Morrissey. Only slightly less than I used to (ha ha ha). And I already heard your 'Seasick' track via the Morrissey-Solo forum.

Can't exactly remember how I came to find it there, but I was curious and gave it a listen.

It didn't work for me, but you made it for your own enjoyment, and it doesn't matter what I think.

On topic, I have tried to think of a song that could 'represent' Bukowski, but I can not. Sorry.
 

mjp

So much been said and so little been done
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#10
Exactly why you felt the need to take such a caustic shit on me, I am not really sure...
Really? You should read it again. I assumed you and the other weepy-teenage-girl-music acolytes would sink your polite teeth into the Morrissey bit, but that wasn't the point at all.

...but if you feel better having written it, that is what's important.
Get a new cliche, that one is emptier than a jar of lube at a Morrissey listening party.

It does not make me "feel better" to have to insult the dimwits who "mix" music and Bukowski readings. There are so many of you that it becomes difficult to think up new ways to insult you after a while. It's almost like work at this point, and work doesn't make me feel better.

Everyone clear? Excellent. I have a sample of Bukowski's stool here and I am anxious to analyze it. This nonsense is keeping me from important research.
 
P

pigmantoo

#11
Exactly why you felt the need to take such a caustic shit on me, I am not really sure, but if you feel better having written it, that is what's important.
mjp stick is insulting some people and pissing some people off. Insults are good for you as it makes you think. I think the best when I am really pissed off "“ turn his insults into a learning situation. Be objective and figure out if his point has merit, if it does address that merit, if not discard it. In other words, don't just post "“ think.

Now let us let mjp get back to his stool analysis.
 
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B

BicycleTragedy

#13
Really? You should read it again. I assumed you and the other weepy-teenage-girl-music acolytes would sink your polite teeth into the Morrissey bit, but that wasn't the point at all.

Get a new cliche, that one is emptier than a jar of lube at a Morrissey listening party.

It does not make me "feel better" to have to insult the dimwits who "mix" music and Bukowski readings. There are so many of you that it becomes difficult to think up new ways to insult you after a while. It's almost like work at this point, and work doesn't make me feel better.

Everyone clear? Excellent. I have a sample of Bukowski's stool here and I am anxious to analyze it. This nonsense is keeping me from important research.
Uh oh, Daddy's getting feisty.

See, mjp, I assume everything anyone does is geared toward some ultimate end of feeling satisfied or good. There's no cliche involved. In other words, you felt the need to insult me, or something I did, because you didn't like it, or even the idea of it, even though nothing was directed at you personally.

That's fine, it's par for the course internet toughguyism. You have decided that because I like Morrissey, I am weepy, polite, emo, adolescent in my tastes...which, if you want to talk about cliche, is about as cliche as it gets where assumptions are concerned. You take the easy route, the lazy route, in formulating what kind of person I must be, because it is conducive to what you've already decided is true based on the fact that I like Morrissey and that I made the little sample thing, or whatever.

You also say I miss the point in being insulted regarding Morrissey, and that your ire is rooted primarily in the welding of the Bukowski samples to the music track, not in being a Morrissey fan per se, which in itself just kind of indicates a probably imbuement of limpwristedness and fey vulnerbailty on my part.

But yeah, that Buk/Morrissey audio marriage I presented is what really gets your blood boiling here. It makes me a "dimwit."

It would be easy for me to get offended, if it were a genuinely personal attack, but I am nothing to you, just an avatar and a random series of typed words. There's no way it COULD be personal. You know nothing about me, any more than I know about you, and our actual lives intersect in no way. But you look at me posting that song here as tantamount to me coming to your house and shitting on your floor. You make it personal, when it is nothing at all to do with you. If your personal artistic sensibilities are offended, get over it.

You don't like the idea of mixing dialog and music? Fair enough, neither do I, it is almost always trite, poorly done, and compromises the integrity of both the original music and the oriinal dialog. I'm not saying my offering was or was not an exception. It was purely posted here in regard to the thread topic.

So, yes, as far as I'm concerned, there is no other reason for you to have written your little anti-Morrissey, anti-sampling bitch rant other than that it gave you a feeling of amusement, superiority, etc...i.e., it made you feel better. Is that cliche? Yes, but it's what happens.

This is the internet. I'd venture a guess that in person, you would very likely not be so free with the insults, as I assume you have got to be close to 50 years old by now, and it is quite unlikely you would feel it wise to call me weepy and teenage-girl like, in person, if we were having this conversation face to face.

But, of course, this is the internet, where you can be as smug and tough and insulting as you like, and run your mouth all you want, and in your little domain you are king and no one can challenge you.

Here in your Bukowski.net world, mjp, your virtility springs eternal. I'd imagine that while you were probably a feisty little scrapper in your prime, you're not quite so quick on your toes anymore. But that's what the internet's for. You can insult people like me all you want, because there's nothing we can do about it.

Or maybe you are as imbued with machismo physically as you are electronically, and if this debate were going on at a bar, you'd be just as condescending, even to the point of blows. I seriously doubt it though.

Anyway it doesn't matter; I'm guilty of nothing other than admitting to liking Morrissey, and doing very minor sampling work regarding a mixture of his music and some Bukowski-sourced audio dialog. I have in no way insulted you, only your sensibilities, which are apparently very very sensitive.

So, who is the weepy teenage girl here, exactly? Because your last few posts have been so adolescent, baseless, and emotionally charged that you just come across as a jaded old pussy.

There there, now. Go listen to Parliament or something else totally overrated. You'll feel better.
 

mjp

So much been said and so little been done
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#17
But yeah, that Buk/Morrissey audio marriage I presented is what...makes me a "dimwit."
I'm glad you understand.

...in your little domain you are king and no one can challenge you.
It's funny that no one sees any irony in saying that as they are challenging me.

It's pomo, brah. Maybe popomo - something so ironic that it folds under the weight of its own irony and begins to double back on itself like funhouse mirrors or an infinite feedback loop. I'm getting dizzy just thinking about it.

By the way, do you know how to get through any walking maze on the first try? When you walk in, put your right hand on the wall. If you follow your hand and never take your hand off the wall, you will get to the exit.
 
B

BicycleTragedy

#18
By the way, do you know how to get through any walking maze on the first try? When you walk in, put your right hand on the wall. If you follow your hand and never take your hand off the wall, you will get to the exit.
Thanks. Merry Christmas!

I'm glad you understand.

It's funny that no one sees any irony in saying that as they are challenging me.
OK, how can I say this...it is your site, so in that sense, you are beyond reproach and challenge. But it isn't irony, because the site itself invites and encourages debate, dissension, disagreement among members, yourself included. So, if someone challenges you, it's because you've created a place for them to do so. The only irony is in the sense of it being paradoxical that on one level you have established a forum for open debate, yet -being the proprietor and head moderator- you ultimately have the final say on any topic at hand, as well as the fundamental right and ability to get rid of anyone who gets under your skin.

You put forth your opinions as fact. You insult people who have said nothing against you, but who have merely offered thoughts or ideological premises that are contrary to, or even just different than, your own. You then ridicule them with almost cartoonish malice if they even remotely rub you the wrong way.

A great example is this Bukowski-Morrissey song/sampling thing: you are obviously against it, but can't say exactly why, other than in muddled references wrapped in blanket diatribes about pants-pissing emo Morrissey fans.

You might, if you wanted to for the sake of an argument, list or refer to prior examples where it has been done crassly and to poor effect, (again in your opinion), yet at the end of the day you can't really say exactly why it doesn't work, or what specifically doesn't work about it. You just decide it's shit, and that's that. Anyone with a differing opinion, to you, is an idiot.

But what the fuck do you have to offer? A great site, sure. Lots of very uselful and interesting knowledge of Bukowski, absolutely. A smug, razor-sharp wit? OK.

But you are not qualified to say Morrissey, or any other artist/performer/writer, is shit, or that the song I presented makes me a dimwit.

You may, if you prefer, say you don't like something, and give reasons why. But, though you are intelligent and articulate, I fail to see how you are qualified artistically or critically to call someone like Morrissey talentless, or for that matter to say that anyone who samples dialog onto a pre-existing music track is a hack. If you are going to spew that kind of bullshit, you've got to back it up. Give specific exapmles of what is bad, and why it doesn't work for you. Don't just spout these random, smug little bitchfits.

I mean, I've seen some of your poetry. C'mon man. Get over yourself. Who the fuck are you to criticize anyone?
 

hoochmonkey9

Art should be its own hammer.
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#19
fuck, enough. seriously.

I like Morrissey. well, I did before I started reading this thread. please, don't make me not like Morrissey anymore. I'll have to shave off my quiff and burn my James Dean dvd boxset. I don't want to do that. if you make me do that I hope a double decker bus comes and kills the both of us. which would leave my wife and son all alone. can you have that on your conscience?

can you?

and although I haven't watched the Morrissey/Bukowski mash up, I can tell you why I wouldn't like it: you are taking two original works by artists and fiddling with them in ways those artists never intended. you aren't doing anything original, you're messing with something original. write your own song/poem/etc. it might be derivative (I'm speaking about all writers here, not just you), but it's your own. send it out to people who publish for a living, if they like it, good. if not, sell shoes.
 

mjp

So much been said and so little been done
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#20
I fail to see how you are qualified artistically or critically to call someone like Morrissey talentless...
We are not supposed to talk about him anymore, so knock it off. Stop instigating, jeez. You are making the moderators yell at me, and that's an awkward position for a man of my stature.

Besides, I love . Honestly, I don't know where you come up with some of the things you say!
 
B

BicycleTragedy

#23
although I haven't watched the Morrissey/Bukowski mash up, I can tell you why I wouldn't like it: you are taking two original works by artists and fiddling with them in ways those artists never intended. you aren't doing anything original, you're messing with something original. write your own song/poem/etc. it might be derivative (I'm speaking about all writers here, not just you), but it's your own. send it out to people who publish for a living, if they like it, good. if not, sell shoes.
It's not a video it's a song. Four big minutes of audio.

I never said it was something original. Show me where I even implied it was a work of art in itself, or an intrinsically creative acheivement on my part.

I like Morrissey. I like Bukowski. I was bored one day and felt like putting two friends in the same room. It was no deeper than that. On these very boards I specifically said, the mixjob was subpar and it doesn't sound professional; it was just a whim I had one day which I pulled out now, many months later, in regard to a request for a song representing Bukowski's themes. The song itself is about sleeping all day, drinking oneself to death, and being shut away from people. Even without the samples, I'd have mentioned it.

If there was any mistake or, in mjp's words, dimwit, action I am guilty of, it was in posting it here and not just keeping my mouth shut. Retardedly I assumed that those here who hated Morrissey (and I assumed mjp would be chief among them) would, being over the age of 14, simply ignore the post and move on, as long as no baiting had occurred on my part, which it hadn't.

But I didn't anticipate the truckful of dogshit shoved in my face. I never said anything, anything incendiary to or toward mjp and to be spoken to and about the way I was by him would be almost disgustingly malicious if it wasn't so absurd.

I have nothing against anyone here; how could I? And in regard to my earlier comment, I've really seen precious little of mjp's poetry, and what I did see was good stuff. Not that he gives a shit, and he shouldn't. But I do respect him, and yet he insists on belittling me and lumping me into a subculture of sycophantic goth teenagers and neutered 40 year old men who still live at home, JUST BECAUSE I SAID I LIKED MORRISSEY.

Fuck, his very first post to me was insulting, when I first joined the forum.

I know I shouldn't give a shit about any of this, and part of me doesn't, but part of me really does because somewhere, at any and every minute, we all exist as actual people outside of our virtual/blogger selves, with feelings and opinions and a right not to be fucked with by egomaniacal assholes, unless they can talk just as much shit in person instead of from behind a monitor. Which they usually can't, and never have to worry about trying to. So the bile flies freely from keyboard to screen.

And it's a shame that among the intelligent, adult people here who are very literate and very talented (and I am not including or excluding myself here, just being objective) it is sad that so much mockery, elitism, and schoolyard bullying has to take place over a disgareement about a fucking singer, or a song with samples on it, or whatever it is.

And I do write a little, Hoochmonkey, but I don't think of myself as a writer, I don't try to get it published, and I don't even put it online, unless I am very drunk, in which case it immediately comes down in the morning. I am admittedly VERY ignorant about the small press, chapbooks, zine culture, independent publishing, and all that. It interests me immensely, but I wouldn't know the first thing about it. So, again, I defer to all of you, including mjp, as very intelligent, talented people who know a hell of a lot more than I do about many of the subjects at hand, but why I had to be put on the fucking rack like this -just like with the Kerouac debate- is something I do not understand.

No one wants to leave the fucking high school, I guess.
 

number6horse

okyoutwopixiesoutyougo
Over 1000 posts
#24
The mere existence of those two tuxedoed clowns, performing their "song cycle" in a listening hall, is final proof that there is no God. No way.

That's why I love this forum. The most unlikely topics can lead to stunning revelations about the fundamental nature of life. The human condition is a swirling, sucking eddy of despair - filled with small moments of false hope, erroneous assumptions and tuxedoed clowns, in an ever-blackening universe.

Go Cubs !
 

hoochmonkey9

Art should be its own hammer.
Moderator
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Over 5000 posts
#25
I know I shouldn't give a shit about any of this, and part of me doesn't, but part of me really does because somewhere, at any and every minute, we all exist as actual people outside of our virtual/blogger selves, with feelings and opinions and a right not to be fucked with by egomaniacal assholes, unless they can talk just as much shit in person instead of from behind a monitor. Which they usually can't, and never have to worry about trying to. So the bile flies freely from keyboard to screen.
ok, I normally wouldn't do this because I think mjp is more than capable to defend himself, but I'm on my second bottle of wine so I'm feisty:

I've been here since day one, when mjp popped the cork on this baby. he may be caustic but he's a straight shooter. and I guarantee you if you met him on the street, in a bar, in a greek bath house, he would speak his mind to your face. I'm pretty sure he's taken on more than you can dish out.

mjp may poke you, but he will never dance around or bullshit.

now, if if you'll excuse me, I have to drink more. because it's Thursday.

it's Thursday, bitches. merry fucking Thursday.
 

nervas

more crickets than friends
Over 1000 posts
#26
But you quote fucking Pearl Jam. So, for however pathetic I am...I'm just saying.
Yes, yes, I love Pearl Jam, especially now that Think Morrisey will ever get paid millions to star in a Target commercial! Ha, didn't think so! Ok, yes, yes, now are you going to write another book about that comment, you seem to have filled enough for thebicycletragedy chronicles on this forum. Where can I buy them?

Oh, oh and in the old my dad could beat up your dad vain...Eddie Vedder would so beat the hell out of Morrisey in a fight...I'm just saying dude.
 

slimedog

Over 1000 posts
#27
Hey, Bukowski was good and all but how many songs did he write? And Morrisey's wrote plenty that made the little girls and boys cream in their jeans so there. And MJP is a big poopsy in the pants for saying mean things anyways.
 
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