And then Andreas started talking about Nazis

Bukfan

"The law is wrong; I am right"
Over 5000 posts
#1
Bukfan said:
I suspect they were afraid of offending the Germans (the same thing happened with a Disney Donald Duck DVD a few years ago. The old WW II cartoons making fun of Hitler and Mussolini were omitted from the European version of the DVD out of fear of offending the Germans and the Italians).
I've never understood such kind of consideration.
It's all about marketplaces and money, isn't it.
I don't understand it either, but that's "political correctness" for you! In the case of the Disney DVD, that was the answer a Disney fan got when he asked the Danish Disney office why they had left out the cartoons that made fun of Hitler and Mussolini from the European version of the DVD. It's odd that they think such old WW II cartoons would offend some Germans and Italians nowadays, but not Americans who got the full DVD. You would have to be a Nazi of fascist to be offended and who cares about their feelings? Well, apparently Disney does. :rolleyes:
 

roni

Over 5000 posts
#3
[...] they think such old WW II cartoons would offend some Germans [...] would have to be a Nazi or fascist to be offended
knowing a little about German mentality my guess is the opposite:
They'd fear to offend the non-nazis.
The reason: In Germany this Hitler-history is put so deep even into younger generations that had nothing to do with it (I was born 1970), that it really is a sort of TABOO to make FUN of it. A cartoon is not SERIOUS enough to cover that time. Really, that is the main-feeling here about this subject.

I can't remember any German movie from before the 9o0s that would use Nazis in an ironic way.
Of course, meanwhile we have Helge Schneider and the likes. It's allowed to laugh about Nazis even in Germany now.

 

Bukfan

"The law is wrong; I am right"
Over 5000 posts
#5
knowing a little about German mentality my guess is the opposite:
They'd fear to offend the non-nazis.
The reason: In Germany this Hitler-history is put so deep even into younger generations that had nothing to do with it (I was born 1970), that it really is a sort of TABOO to make FUN of it. A cartoon is not SERIOUS enough to cover that time. Really, that is the main-feeling here about this subject.
Good point, Roni! I never thought of that. Strange, that the subject is so serious that you can't make fun of (ridicule) the Nazis. I would have thought ridiculing the Nazis would be okay for the Germans as a way of pointing out how crazy they were. Maybe Helga Schneider can help change that.
 

roni

Over 5000 posts
#6
[...] ridiculing the Nazis would be okay for the Germans [...]
only for those with some humor. Like the readers of Walter Moers' comics.
When in the 90s his book 'Adolf' came out, the press release said:
"Isn't making fun of Nazism a Must-Not? - No! It is a Must!" ... but you see: this joke only worked, because the common way to see it was, that it actually IS a Must-Not.

Walter-Moers_Adolf.jpg
 

Andreas

Over 100 posts
#7
knowing a little about German mentality my guess is the opposite:
They'd fear to offend the non-nazis.
I don't agree with your way of seeing the Germans, Roni.
I'm convinced you can still find a great deal of Nazism in German society. It's not restricted to a minority of the population, it's widespread, often hidden and subtle. And I'm not talking about the eastern parts of Germany, the former GDR, or Austria, where Nazism has never been looked back on and reappraised the way it had been in West Germany, and where, as a result, hostility to foreigners is much more common and obvious.

My wife and her family are Armenian refugees from Azerbaijan. We met a lot of Nazis in the last ten years. Not the dumb skinhead type flocking together in the streets, but people who seem to be quite 'normal'. People in offices, in department stores, in the city hall, people who are so ignorant and so full of shit you wouldn't believe it.
Of course, the way Germany presents itself is quite different. Progressive, liberal, cosmopolitan. Only, that has little to do with reality.

The character of people does not change within one or two generations.
Or as my wife puts it (much better): The shit is in your genes, darling!
 

mjp

Keep my good eye on the beat
Moderator
Founding member
Over 5000 posts
#8
It's not logical or fair to equate stupidity and racism to Nazism. There are idiots and racist everywhere, even in Armenia.

The "character" of the average German isn't what allowed Nazism to flourish, the weaknesses inherent in being human did.
 

Bukfan

"The law is wrong; I am right"
Over 5000 posts
#9
only for those with some humor. Like the readers of Walter Moers' comics.
When in the 90s his book 'Adolf' came out, the press release said:
"Isn't making fun of Nazism a Must-Not? - No! It is a Must!" ... but you see: this joke only worked, because the common way to see it was, that it actually IS a Must-Not.
I don't see how German non-Nazis could be offended by people making fun of Hitler and Nazism. The Nazis should be ridiculed so that nobody take their ideas seriously. It's especially important nowadays when they're on the march again and the extreme rightwing party, National Partei Deutschland (NPD), is getting seats in the local German parliaments. And it's not only in Germany, but in many other European countries that the extreme right is gaining speed, for a great part thanks to the many Muslim immigrants we have and which create some problems that the extreme right can exploit by exaggerating them. They used to blame the Jews for all the ills in society and now it's the Muslim immigrants.

I know of Walter Moers Adolf, die nazi sau, but I have´nt read it. It was also made into a CGI movie and there's lots of video clips from it on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=walter+moers+adolf

The "character" of the average German isn't what allowed Nazism to flourish, the weaknesses inherent in being human did.
Good point, mjp! Just think of the former fascist dictatorships in Italy and Spain and nowadays there are many fascist movements and parties in eastern Europe and in Russia too, and Italy have had a fascist party for decades.
 

zobraks

Moderator
Over 1000 posts
#11
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Andreas

Over 100 posts
#12
Who could have thought that a topic about Dangling in the Tournefortia would turn into this.
But the title of the thread is still suitable, isn't it?

It's not logical or fair to equate stupidity and racism to Nazism.
Is there a difference between a racist and a nazi? I'm curious to know your definition of it.

The "character" of the average German isn't what allowed Nazism to flourish, the weaknesses inherent in being human did.
That's what they say, and Germans like to hear that.
It suggests that the same machinery of murder and insanity could have happened everywhere.

It couldn't.
 
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mjp

Keep my good eye on the beat
Moderator
Founding member
Over 5000 posts
#14
Is there a difference between a racist and a nazi?
Nazi = racist does not mean racist = Nazi. But you knew that. False cause, is what they call that kind of thing.
I'm curious to know your definition of it.
Definitions are definitions. I didn't create them.
It suggests that the same machinery of murder and insanity could have happened everywhere.

It couldn't.
Of course it could, and it has. The Nazis didn't invent genocide, and they weren't the last to carry it out. But you knew that too.

You're either baiting (badly) or willfully ignorant. Neither looks good on you, so relax. Talk about books or something.
 

roni

Over 5000 posts
#15
[...] so that nobody take their ideas seriously
that's exactly why many people are against making fun of Nazis:
they fear that the message would be, to Not take Nazis (and the threat that comes with their ideas) serious.

(The argument is, that if we don't take their efforts seriously, they'll have it easier to take over because nobody would really see the danger coming. And there is something to it. One has to be aware of the seriousness, to see it coming in time and fight it in time. But I also think, that it is important to laugh them into their faces and make them look ridiculous. In my world it's possible to do both at one time, but I understand that not everybody can handle such a balance [or seemingly contradictory] act.)

yes, the mods should exclude this topic from the thread and create a new one.
 
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Bukfan

"The law is wrong; I am right"
Over 5000 posts
#16
One has to be aware of the seriousness, to see it coming in time and fight it in time. But I also think, that it is important to laugh them into their faces and make them look ridiculous. In my world it's possible to do both at one time,...
I think so too. One should do both. Scorn and ridicule is one of the weapons we should use against them, but we should also be aware of the danger they pose and use the law against them, as much as it's possible in a free society.
 

zobraks

Moderator
Over 1000 posts
#18
Here's Woody Allen's take on dealing with Nazis:
Woody: Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey, you know?
We should go there, get some guys together. Get some bricks and baseball bats and explain things to them.
Man: There was this devastating satirical piece on that in the Times.
Woody: Well, a satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really get right to the point.
Woman: Aw, but really biting satire is always better than physical force.
Woody: No, physical force is always better with Nazis. Because... It's hard to satirize a guy with shiny boots.
from Manhattan (1979)
 
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Andreas

Over 100 posts
#19
It's amazing how much shit can happen within a short period of time. It's only three and a half years ago now that I ranted about racist tendencies in German society. It turned out that my own observations have been pretty much outperformed by reality since then.
There's an extreme right-wing party in the German Bundestag now, some call it just a Nazi party, elected by about 13% of all the voters in 2017. In parts of East Germany (Saxonia) they've even won the elections.

And look at the United States. Ruled by a lunatic now. A lunatic who got 63 million votes. The other lunatic, who is supposed to be slightly less lunatic than the first one, got 65 million votes, but lost.

And look at Turkey. What's wrong with Turkey? Well, if you don't know what's wrong with Turkey I better stop writing right here.
 

Pogue Mahone

Officials say drugs may have played a part
Over 1000 posts
#21
I was born in 1968, the year America lost control. It passed eventually. Hopefully 2018 will too, although there is no doubt it will pass into 2019 when the real sick shit makes itself evident... Hold on tight...
 

Bukfan

"The law is wrong; I am right"
Over 5000 posts
#22
It's scary what's happening in world at the moment - Trump in the US, Nazis on the rise in Germany, Putin in Russia, Erdogan in Turkey and they're all authoritarians who wants to dictate what society should look like and to do away with people they don't like one way or another. Putin and Erdogan are already successful in that area.
 

Andreas

Over 100 posts
#29
Ja Roni, das ist ein richtig starkes Vorwort, nicht nur für das Buch, sondern auch als Ansage an das verkackte Establishment überhaupt. Ich lese es immer wieder gerne.
 
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