Bukowski and Women (1 Viewer)

S

SouthernGentleman

Hello everyone,

I've studied Bukowski's work for some time now, but I did not discover this forum until just minutes ago. I can already tell that I will enjoy this place.

For some time I have thought about Bukowski's dealings with women, and I have compared them with my own. Whatever succcess Bukowski had with women, he clearly took a deviant approach. He did not play phone games. He did not act cute. And he was ugly on top of that. Yet if Women is true to life, Bukowski did all right in spite of his disadvantages. And so there must have been something there. So, guys and girls, I have some questions that may be fun to discuss.

1) How realistic do Bukowski's encounters with women seem? Is this really how you see things play out in life? In your life?

2) What advantages did he have? What sort of allure?

3) What disadvantages did he have, other than the obvious ones?

Yours,

SouthernGentleman
 
It's interesting thing that I just recently discovered the fact that I was UGLY! Try looking at your profile. My nose is like a beak of California Condor, and just as big. Thus, the explanation why I couldn't get the women I LIKED!

I guess, that was his advantage? He was aware that he was ugly, and never expected much. Like, he didn't TRY?
 
That's a good point, Bukfan. According to Sean Connery's character in the movie Finding Forrester, "Women will sleep with you if you write a bad book."

But he does seem to have some measure of success before his fame. In Factotum, for example, Jan says to him: "You're a hooker, you can hook women." (Ch. 59). And in Post Office he does his fair share of womanizing, starting on the first page.
 
A lot of women are attracted to 'bad' boys (such as women that write to and end up hooking up with prisoners). IMO a lot of it is to do with their nurturing instincts and wanting to make things 'right' for them. None of them made it 'right' for Bukowski until perhaps the last Linda and a lot of this may have been to do with him growing older and becoming naturally less displaced from the human race

I'm still not so sure how so many women came across his writings and liked what they read. His writing surely struck much more of a chord with men, rather than women?

Speaking of women, that Cupcakes one in Born Into This didn't look like she wanted to be there and she definitely didn't seem to have any idea about what was going on :confused:

I find it interesting that there's quite a number of poems about Jane, some which were written years and decades after she's died
 
adrian said:
Speaking of women, that Cupcakes one in Born Into This didn't look like she wanted to be there and she definitely didn't seem to have any idea about what was going on :confused:
Click to expand...
Well, she posts here sometimes, maybe she'll tell you if she knew what was going on.

Who knows what anyone knows. "If you remember the 60's (or 70's), you weren't there," right? ;)
 
Well, if i had been a young gayBoy at the chelseyHotel, when Burroughs was there, I would have wanted to suck his cook too, i guess.
I mean, wouldnt it be hip, and then i would appear as his mouse in his interviews and one camera will atract other cameras and i will be a STAR-FAMOUS ...Blabla.
I guess theres a very similar story right here.
Then again, anyone knows.

:)
 
No, no, that's someone else. If you've seen "Born Into This" she's in there. The lady on the avatar is...well, I don't want to be judgemental now...
 
SouthernGentleman said:
Hello everyone,

I've studied Bukowski's work for some time now, but I did not discover this forum until just minutes ago. I can already tell that I will enjoy this place.

For some time I have thought about Bukowski's dealings with women, and I have compared them with my own. Whatever succcess Bukowski had with women, he clearly took a deviant approach. He did not play phone games. He did not act cute. And he was ugly on top of that. Yet if Women is true to life, Bukowski did all right in spite of his disadvantages. And so there must have been something there. So, guys and girls, I have some questions that may be fun to discuss.

1) How realistic do Bukowski's encounters with women seem? Is this really how you see things play out in life? In your life?

2) What advantages did he have? What sort of allure?

3) What disadvantages did he have, other than the obvious ones?

Yours,

SouthernGentleman
Click to expand...

Having read Bukowski quite a lot and being a woman I would think that Bukowski had style. If he was pushing weights he must have had a certain pride and self assurance. He had hair...Being such a good observer and sarcastic on top of that must have been fun if you were not the target. As Bukfan said, he became popular with better looking women only once he got famous. I think that he was a good listener (did I read that or what?) And he often mention his good legs... His disadvantages were that he would get too drunk and pass out or throw up or would become intolerant or all of the above.
Prior to his fame he would generally pick up women who would drink with him. That is easily done. To write about it was his gift. That is attractive...
 
adrian said:
But I don't think too many men wanted to sleep with him after he left the post office ;)
Click to expand...

Adrian
I am sure that many men wanted to sleep with him too... especially after he left the post office and had started to stand on his own... I do not think that he was into that though. At the time being gay was very unpopular and meant trouble . He was the man...
 
Hold on a second!!

Lets be clear if Buk is hanging out in cheap bars then ANYONE who wants to, can have as many woman as they want want to becuase only women those on the last legs of luck go to these places.
he coud have been anything and he would still get laid.
We are not talking about beautiful women with wonderful personalities we are talking about women who in all liklihood had rotten lives (and livers) before meeting him.
As long as there was a free drink at home there was always a chance.

As any girl knows if your not choosey you can get laid every night of the week.
Trolling skid row with a bottle is like a win/win for losers.
 
Remember the story from John Martin about meeting two young beautiful European women that were sitting on Buk's porch waiting for him to get home so that they could Fuck him. I think that the story was in Born Into This.

When he became famous, he did not need to go to them. They came to him.

Bill
 
And remember that during the years before they came to him, he did not see a lot of action. Not an aggressor, I think it's safe to say. He did better when he was pursued. ;)
 
His fame is what attracted Linda Lee as well. I am pretty sure that she would not have given him the time of day if he slept on a park bench.
 
Wow.
It's pretty presumptuous to assume you know the first thing about what dynamic existed between LLB and CB.
Fame?
Talent?
Intelligence?
Charm?
Wit?
More?
Less?
All of the above...and not?

I don't know. Do you?
 
Right, in Women Buk is talking about 2 German hippies, Martin said they were Dutch. I didn't meet them, yet.
 
ROC said:
Wow.
It's pretty presumptuous to assume you know the first thing about what dynamic existed between LLB and CB.
Fame?
Talent?
Intelligence?
Charm?
Wit?
More?
Less?
All of the above...and not?

I don't know. Do you?
Click to expand...
It is not a presumptuous statement, it is simply a rational one.
I am saying that if CB were not famous, LLB would not have wanted to go to that reading to meet him . His charm...his intelligence...his wit... his all of the above, to borrow your language is what ensued from their meeting. In other words LLB would not have discovered him without him being on the cultural map of LA. She went to a reading because she had heard of him. He was famous, and it was and is a prestigious thing to be introduced to such an original writer. Buk was a center of culture in CA at that period and was even starting to enjoy an international career.
 
I know Buk was famous but you say, "His fame is what attracted Linda Lee as well."
Unless you are LLB, I don't think you or anyone else can say that with any degree of certainty.
If she had read some of his stuff but he was not famous, she would not have been interested in going to his reading?

Yours is not an unreasonable statement... it just bothers me that you state it as a matter of fact - which it isn't - it's just your opinion - hence, presumptuous.
You (and I) don't really know one way or the other.
 
Ponder said:
Right, in Women Buk is talking about 2 German hippies, Martin said they were Dutch. I didn't meet them, yet.
Click to expand...
That story has been told by Bukowski many times over the years in many different versions. I was surprised to hear Martin relate it as something he experienced, since in all the times Bukowski typed or told the story the witness was never a publisher, but always a mail carrier or a neighbor.

But what do I know.
 
I visited the USA many times and they're often joking, are you from Sweden? No I'm from Holland. Oh that's the same, they say :)

And I don't tell them anymore I'm from the Netherlands, most of them don't know what the Netherlands is!
 
ROC said:
Like Dubya or his right-wing religious looney friends - not an opinion but a dogma.
Click to expand...

Okay, to end this discussion on a good note: let's say I was being presumptuous to say that Linda was initially attracted to Bukowskis 'fame, as his groupies, which is to me a fact, what would this conversation make you... at the other end? I suppose that you would be absolutely right... right?
Let's Buk on
 
Yes, if there is room to doubt your opinion, then there must be room to doubt mine - even if my 'opinion' is simply doubting the veracity of your opinion.
Therefore, if sufficient doubt is cast on my opinion, which states that your opinion lacks accuracy vis-à-vis the reality of LLBs initial attraction to CB , it might be deduced that your opinion is in fact fact whereas my opinion is simply me blowing delicate notes from my posterior.
However, if we both accept the idea that neither of our ideas constitute facts but are, simply, unverifiable opinions, then it might be shown that your original statement was an article of opinion stated as fact, whereas my opinion (casting doubt on the accuracy of your 'fact') was an acknowledgment of reality and nature of "truth'.

Right?
 
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My dear Roc,

Allrighty? I was not going to take the bait, the sun is going down and the day has been a fruitbowl...

All these words, a nice philosophical formula but no pulse. I am working with a very active left brain and communicating as well as I can with ESL. Did she or did'nt she?
I am tempted to say Vade Retro Roco but I will stand as an old wrestler ready to grapple.
As a painter I really appreciated the picture that you painted of yourself blowing notes from your posterior... that is referring to the opinion you believe that I have of your opinion, regarding your concept of "truth". I have decided to grant you a blue star for your effort at gaining my confidence in your conclusion . But the gold star is to be gained .The equation is just an equation, it is simply a draft ,an attempt, a mask at hiding a lack of courage on your behalf. At least I have expressed myself with no shame where as you hide behind sterile enunciations of acquired knowledge. Greetings from the bottom of my heart.
You should definitely cut down on the Red Bull.
 
Yeah. Shits and giggles were lost on you so...
In plain english...

You claim to know LLB motivations - in essence - what she thought.
I say you cannot know this.

i.e. you are full of shit in pretending to know something you are only guessing at and I am right in saying you are only guessing.

End of story.



(but no... my bullshit meter tells me I'll hear from you again - so over to you once more)
 
Hey Roc!

How are you doing?

Don't tell me that we are down at throwing shit all over the place. We need to be nice. I was expecting a little more creativity from you, more originality.

By the way about your shit meter. You are using it for in coming mail only. There is another function for the out going mail as well. Look at the manual.
Enter reflect and it will come on.

I am happy If I can make you laugh.

Have a nice day!
 
You do make me laugh. But not for the reasons you intend.

At this stage, what you are doing amounts to trolling.

You come on to a (the?) Bukowski website and state definitively that you know why LLB was attracted to CB (not that it matter!).
I suggest you can't possibly know this and you insist it is a simple fact.

In lieu of any proof or intelligent input, you offer glib quips and attempts at humor that barely conceal your passive/aggressive stance.

So - offer me some proof - show me how you know what you claim to know and I will bow out gracefully.

And, just so we're clear - I'm not positing a contrary opinion to yours - I'm simply stating that there is no basis in fact for yours.
Can you see the difference?
 
Black Swan and ROC

Hey guys,

Let's try to get back to the topic, if that's all right. Debating the conditions of assertability, the relation between assertion and knowledge, and so forth is something you two can do in epistemology forums and journals.

For now, let's keep the good comments coming about Buk's allure to women, and how much his fame had to do with it.

Thanks everyone for contributing.

SouthernGentleman
 

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