Bukowski on Jack Kerouac? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter MeNoHary
- Start date
CarversDog
RIP
He took a couple swipes at Kerouac in "Hollywood" but then somewhere else (I think in "Tales of Ordinary Madness") he wrote admirably of Kerouac, though I believe in reference to Kerouac's infleunce by Rimbaud and Celine.
In Notes, in the Cassady column, he writes about Kerouac a little. I think also in the often-quoted political rant he writes about the beats more generally. I always got the idea that Buk didn't much care for Kerouac?
From Notes, "Kerouac had set him up for the sucker punch and Neal had bit, kept biting. but you know Neal was o.k. and another way of looking at it, Jack had only written the book, he wasn't Neal's mother. just his destructor, deliberate or otherwise" (24).
From Notes, "Kerouac had set him up for the sucker punch and Neal had bit, kept biting. but you know Neal was o.k. and another way of looking at it, Jack had only written the book, he wasn't Neal's mother. just his destructor, deliberate or otherwise" (24).
Father Luke
Founding member
He may have been talking about the hemorrhaging.
"Kerouac died on October 21, 1969 at St.
Anthony's Hospital in St. Petersburg, Florida from
an internal hemorrhage at the age of 47, the
unfortunate result of a life of heavy drinking, seen
by some as a way to overcome his shyness." (cite)
Bukowski's hemorrhage was in April of '54.
Then there is this. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pull_My_Daisy
Thanks for posting this quote. I remember the Notes column very well, and remember feeling that Bukowski felt strongly that Kerouac had glorified Neal in a way that Neal could never possibly live up to. It was a huge monkey on his back and it probably helped destroy him... Kerouac did him no favor. The irony of that column (originally written for Open City or the L.A Free Press in the late 60s, I do believe) is that although Bukowski was never a Beat writer, it was HE who ended up writing the best and most realistic tribute that Neal could ever have - that Neal was an okay guy - rather than the tribute having come from one of the Beat writers right after Neal died. And that's about the only connection that Bukowski had with the Beats that I can see - writing briefly about one of their heroes.
As for the Kerouac's writings, I'm sure Bukowski read something of it or he wouldn't have had such strong feelings about how Kerouac had portrayed Neal. I hope so, because On the Road and Dharma Bums are beautifully written, inspiring and flowing works of art. They had considerable influence at the time, turning Kerouac into a cultural icon, and they are particularly great reading when one is young. ("Hit the road! Life is an adventure! Enjoy the moment! Spontaneous sex is okay!")
The problem is that Kerouac didn't seem to be able to live up to the freedom of spirit he wrote about when young in his later life, and died a truly pitiful alcoholic in his mid-40s, reverting back to his Catholic roots rather than his Zen philosophy, a man who appeared to be completely sentimentally attached and emotionally dependent on his mother. So much of what Kerouac wrote wasn't somehow real, perhaps in the same way that his portrait of Neal in On the Road wasn't real, and Bukowski finally set the record straight. He was one of the few people who saw what Neal was beyond Kerouac's glorified image of this essentially blue-collar guy. Yes, there's a beautiful irony in there somewhere that the gods had Bukowski step in for the final word. The Notes column was heartfelt and that's what made it memorable.
do i get this wrong b/c of being no native speaker?
i had thought, when he said "Kerouac has set back the standards for 50 years" - this would mean, he was going into the past with the standerds he 'set', not into the future. and thus would be Against Kerouac.
- ?
Father Luke
Founding member
I wouldn't presume to talk for her, but I think that vodka was specifically referring to his poetry, rather than his entire body of work. That's the distinction.
Johannes
Founding member
That's what I meant. I will give you the exact quote as soon as I'll have the book near again.
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surely you jest
of all the Beat writters the only one Bukowski wrote about with any real respect was neal. I get the feeling that one of the main reasons he didn't seem to like Kerouac was becuase of what he did to Neal. with on the road he drew a portrait of Neal that he couldn't possibly live up to. I think that played a major role in eventual demise of Neal cassady. In a way i agree with Buk's quote about setting standards back 50 years but at the same time i'm a big fan of alot of Jack's work namely "on the road" and the Dharma bums". i also agree that the "notes.." column is the best and most realistic tribute cassady could have. like always Bukowski told it as it was not how he wanted it to be.
the only good poet
One retreat after another without peace.
there's a poem in At terror street where kerouac gets at mention. i believe it's called Voices. capote disliked kerouac. bukowski disliked capote and keroauc. something like that. it's all gossip.
LickTheStar
Sad Flower in the Sand
I love On The Road, but his poetry, by and large, is complete and utter trash.
There's some gems but overall it sucks. Drugs + an editor who'll publish anything you shit out onto a page is a bad combination. Kerouac was only truly good when he took the time to edit his works. On The Road, Dharma Bums... not much else.
There's some gems but overall it sucks. Drugs + an editor who'll publish anything you shit out onto a page is a bad combination. Kerouac was only truly good when he took the time to edit his works. On The Road, Dharma Bums... not much else.
Black Swan
Abord the Yorikke!
10th Chorus Mexico City Blues
The great hanging weak teat of India
on the map
The Fingernail of Malaya
The Wall of China
The Korea Ti-Pousse Thumb
The Salamander Japan
the Okinawa Moon Spot
The Pacific
The Back of Hawaiian Mountains
coconuts
Kines, balconies, Ah Tarzan--
And D W Griffith
the great American Director
Strolling down disgruntled
Hollywood Lane
-- to toot Nebraska,
Indian Village New York,
Atlantis, Rome,
Peleus and Melisander,
And
swans of Balls
Spots of foam on the ocean
that's a head trip. i don't know what to think.
Black Swan
Abord the Yorikke!
I think he did a lot of speed
Indeed. He wrote The Subterraneans in a single writing spur on a benzedrine high on a roll of toilet paper. A very good book; very stream of conciousness. Reading it is like listening to old jazz records. Dharma Bums is better. On the Road is OK at best. Not sure why that made such a splash.
Desolation Angels is pretty good, as a later book. Kerouac went very so far up and down. He loved Ginsberg, and we all know what Buk thought of ole Allen. All in all, Kerouac got me into the beats, and that got me into people who knew Buk. So, that's a strong reference. I need to remember that forever.
Desolation Angels is pretty good, as a later book. Kerouac went very so far up and down. He loved Ginsberg, and we all know what Buk thought of ole Allen. All in all, Kerouac got me into the beats, and that got me into people who knew Buk. So, that's a strong reference. I need to remember that forever.
LickTheStar
Sad Flower in the Sand
I think I have to re-read Subterraneans... I didn't get it, maybe. I really liked On The Road. Really romanticized, sure, but... excluding Selby, I do better with punctuation.
Dharma Bums is my favorite though...
Excellent!
Spot on! I couldn't agree with you more, David. As a poet Buk may have been more consistent, but Kerouac's genius shone through some of his poetry, too. Yes, many of his American Haiku are beautiful and to hear him read them out loud accompanied by Zoot Sims and Al Cohn is just fantastic.
mjp
Founding member
He wrote good Haiku? That's like being the best Cricket player in your American high school. Who cares? ;)
I guess I'm not a fan of art as math exercise. "You asshole, that's too many syllables!" You guys can have it.
As for Kerouac - never has anyone been celebrated for doing so little great work.
Wait, that's not true. I forgot about J.D. Salinger...
Oh dear. As predictable as always I guess.
vodka
Miss Take
that is absolutely correct. i love his other writing, and i was expecting to love his poetry as much. and i tried to. but then i just couldn't. that has, in no way, changed my opinion of his other writing, though. which i enjoy very much.Father Luke said:
would anyone like another comma? ;)
the only good poet
One retreat after another without peace.
kerouac wrote it down as it came.
Black Swan
Abord the Yorikke!
Kerouac speaks,
someone might enjoy this link
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
someone might enjoy this link
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
mjp
Founding member
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know I was required to agree with you.
I like Kerouac a lot and I think Desolation is my fave but their is a passage in Big Sur which is one of my favorite by anyone. The disillusionment is starting in these books. I reread On the Road and agree it's not one of his best.
I read most of his books but never read his poetry.
Kerouac is said
To have written fine haikus
MJP hates them
that isn't a haiku... 5,7,5.. ?
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Jimmy Snerp - you picked my favorite Kerouac poem! I was going to quote that one myself. It's perfect.
It wasn't a matter of counting syllables with him. It was lean, pure, concise. All about spirit. Maybe he did count syllables, I dunno, but that's not the point.
I agree Kerouac wrote a lot of sloppy crap and a big portion of his work can be ignored. But when he was on his game, he was great. So much more conscious a human being than many of the other typers of those days. But I think a big part of his fame was his good cowboy looks and smooth jazz voice.
