Confederate Flag (1 Viewer)

I think of the Iron cross in Buks car. I wonder how he would he have responded to the current calls to remove the flag and anything confederate from government buildings. I also think of the monument for Crazy Horse who also killed union soldiers. Whatever Buks or your opinion this is a tough one to address and stay consistent
 

Hosh

hoshomccreesh.com
I think America has been pretty damn tolerant of the flag -- for 150 years now. I mean, historically speaking, has any other country won a war, then left their enemy's flag flying?

Had we stared that terrible time in our history in the face honestly, it surely wouldn't have taken this long. Part of progessing as a culture and a nation and a species is figuring out what's fair, what's just, what's right...and even that is fluid and may well change over time. We built this imperfect union of ours with brutal practices that we should prefoundly regret. Taking down a flag is not a lot to ask.

And even still it took another something else so horrific to make even this small change.

The only way forward as humans on this planet is together. We can't continue brutalizing or marginalizing anyone and expect to survive.

At least that feel obvious to me...though I truly hope I'm willing to toss out any of my own silly notions for a greater good.
 
The only way forward as humans on this planet is together. We can't continue brutalizing or marginalizing anyone and expect to survive.

Don't confuse this sort of thing for "historical progress." History is one people displacing another, one ideology displacing another, etc. This is just more of the same. We're moving forward "together" by getting rid of people and ideas we don't like.
 

mjp

Founding member
Not sure why you're trying to make it seem as if Crazy Horse was some sort of rebel flag waving confederate soldier. Unless Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson are going to be in the monument too it has nothing to do with the civil war.

You've latched on to a ridiculous argument in favor of that flag. How about talking about what it means today instead of dragging Indians who have been dead for more than 100 years in to the argument.
 
Hosh said >has any other country won a war, then left their enemy's flag flying?
One of the arguments to remove flags and monuments that honour confederate courage is that they were anti American. Crazy Horse was definitely anti American as were all who fought with him. That was why he was mentioned. Lee has been dead 100 years too.

What that flag means today is tied to the KKK co opting of the flag the same way Hitler co opted the swastika. But the flag also means a great deal to many confederate family descendants who fought as bravely as anyone along side Crazy Horse. It also scatters the shit out of most non whites in the south too I imagine.
In New Orleans there is talk to remove Lee's statue from Lee Square-if that statue is to go then why build the Crazy Horse statue-if that statue is to come down then why not bring down Rushmore-cause I'm sure relatives of Crazy Horse were ill served by those on the monument. The thread was too reveal that it is a complex issue. I haven't said why I think should happen to the flag but I will now.It should come down from government buildings in my gut view-but I am very clear knowing that slave owning Washington and Jefferson fair just as poorly as that flag, Lee and Crazy Horse under a revisionist eye.


There is so much knee jerk positioning right now.
Imagine how this site would be perceived if that freaking idiot Roof had been holding a copy of Ham on Rye.
 

mjp

Founding member
What that flag means today is tied to the KKK co opting of the flag the same way Hitler co opted the swastika.
Which is why I suppose people think they are not the best symbols to have flying around. You know, over government buildings.

I don't care if the southern states want to fly the Jolly Roger over their capitol buildings. I don't feel any emotional attachment to - or revulsion for - any flag. But when they become symbols of hatred and violence I can understand why the people that hatred and violence are directed toward might not want to see them.
 
Agreed
My hope when any extremist nut does something stupid is for the opposite effect to follow.
The flags will come down from buildings and stay in the rear windows of pick ups I suppose.

It's too much to expect creative types to use this as an opportunity to bring people together to..I don't know build a factory or a living civil war museum where ALL affected can educate in a positive creative and brutally honest way.
A Why I hate this flag and Why I love this flag presentation would go a long way to teach people thats it's ok to have two of more contradictory opinions in your head until you have resolved the matter…and that resolution may not come.
 
As is typical, much of the original significance of the Confederate flag has been obliterated by ignorance of history. The Civil War didn't start over slavery, it started over northern financial interests at the expense of southern financial interests. A fortuitous decision by Lincoln was to bring slavery into the matter as a way of galvanizing the northern effort for an ultimate victory. It's difficult to navigate this issue without ruffling someone's feathers, but the Confederate flag wasn't intended to represent oppression, although I suppose it's impossible to separate the two at this point. These days, it does represent that whether that is the intent or not. Remember that the Buddha was often depicted adorned with a swastika as a symbol of purity of knowledge and enlightenment, not purity of race. But these days, you wouldn't have to spit very far to hit someone that might comment that they had no idea that the Buddha was a Nazi.

All that said, getting rid of it is the thing to do.
 
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mjp

Founding member
But even after all the uproar, South Carolina refuses to remove the flag.

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Hosh

hoshomccreesh.com
Here's a pretty decent article in re: the flag. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

As for Crazy Horse...maybe his monument will be bigger because his people were here first? I don't know, I'm just spitballin' here. Sorry, that's being flippant, and I don't mean to.

What's complicated about the issue is this: This is America's history. We are Americans. And some of the things we did while shaping our nation are really terrible. That's uncomfortable. No one likes to hear about how they fucked up. But all nations' histories are rife with mistakes. What feels best, to me, in such situations is to apologize and move on. Maybe that's what all the hubbub is about...formally apologizing, so we can move on.

Shit man, we're all a bunch of imperfect humans, perceiving our existence through the lens of our own feeble brains. And all our ideologies are truly the curse of humanity. Religions. Nations. Borders. Governments. Once we think we know any damn thing -- just you watch out -- we're gonna defend our ideas to the death, break our own god's rules...for our gods!!

Sometimes I lose my keys. I'll say to myself, "I know I put my keys right here...I remember doing it...I know for a fact I left them here..." Then I'll find them in my jeans and remember, "oh, shit, that's right...I put my keys there yesterday, not today." And if I can be wrong about that, I can be wrong about anything. Including an ideology. Or ALL ideologies. We each arrive at a belief system that gets us through our days as painlessly as possible. But I don't trust that my "truth" is anything more than the prejudices I agree with. And neither is anyone else's "truth." We're all insane. I just want to live my crazy days out being as decent as I can to as many people as I can.
 
Sorry, good as dead once he is sentenced. That's the least time I type while driving the bus.

Here's what's fucked. I'm listening to la live broadcast of the north mississippi country jam (R L Burnside types ) .with some great blues artists both black and white and the MIssissippi state flag has the confederate flag in the corner. Music, at least for me, is always the solution.

Well said Hosh-I enjoyed the key analogy
 
Speaking of flags…I'm coming home today and see a rainbow flag hanging from my neighbour's house. The are in their 70's and their son is gay. That's very cool and as good as omen as any that the future is going in the right direction.
 

Digney in Burnaby

donkeys live a long time
Never found a flag to pledge allegiance to. Or against for that matter. Having typed that I notice I still have the maple leaf flag found on the side of the road from the 2010 Olympics sitting over to my left. And a Jolly Roger found in similar circumstances. But I'm not putting hand over heart to them and muttering some rhymes.
 
During the World Cup in Germany in 2006 German flags popped up everywhere. People stuck them onto the top of their cars, hung them in their windows, and if a flagpole was available they set up the banner. Interestingly, when the championship was over all the flags vanished, as if they never existed. One could get the impression that the German people had been waiting for such an opportunity for a long time, waving "their" flag, without ideologies involved, just to support a dull soccer team. Politically correct enthusiasm, if you will.
I wonder where all those flags are now. Maybe they sleep with them.
 

Skygazer

And in the end...
It's amazing really the power of symbols like flags .Even in huge, complex societies the notion of kinship is still important to us. Flags are very prevalent in the U.S though (not just for high days and holidays) which perhaps just reflected the relative youth and need for identity/nationhood in the presence of massive immiigration.

That the confederate flag has survived and not been stamped out perhaps should perhaps be considered as a strength rather than a failing of the system; complete homogeny in an open society will always be partial and incomplete.Those that use it as a symbol of white supremacy and hate will be a minority,but it looks like the consensus will be to now have it removed from official buildings etc. - hopefully. Won't stop the idiots displaying it though in "acts of defiance" but they may as well have dumbass stamped on their forehead..

(Referring to the flag here, not the inexcusable, inexplicable delay of black civil rights in the south).
 
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