John Martin (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Josh Rock
- Start date
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
I like him. Actually, I call him a friend.
Some people like me and others do not.
Bill
Some people like me and others do not.
Bill
I like you, Bill!
I have mixed feelings for Mr. Martin, however. but as cirerita correctly points out, that's irrelevant.
I have mixed feelings for Mr. Martin, however. but as cirerita correctly points out, that's irrelevant.
number6horse
okyoutwopixiesoutyougo
I've never met the man, but I've seen examples of where he made changes to Bukowski's work that really pushed the boundaries of editing. He would flat out change a word in a poem that he apparently thought "worked better" and that change would end up altering the whole tone and intent of the work.
I have never met Mr. Martin, nor corresponded with him in any way, and thus have absolutely no basis for forming an opinion of him.He will always be appreciated for helping Buk get into print thru the beautiful books of Black Sparrow Press. No doubt about that. But...
As for his "actions" as the editor of Buk's posthumous poetry collections, the basis is pretty obvious.
There is an increasing amount of evidence indicating that Mr. Martin changed the words of many of the poems in the posthumous collections, and changed them in a very bad way. One can only wonder how a man who was a friend of Buk for so many years could do something like this after his death. Maybe it's Alzheimer's disease.
(Alzheimer: noun Pathology. a common form of dementia of unknown cause, usually beginning in late middle age, characterized by memory lapses, confusion, emotional instability, and progressive loss of mental ability.)
Simply unfathomable.
As for his "actions" as the editor of Buk's posthumous poetry collections, the basis is pretty obvious.
There is an increasing amount of evidence indicating that Mr. Martin changed the words of many of the poems in the posthumous collections, and changed them in a very bad way. One can only wonder how a man who was a friend of Buk for so many years could do something like this after his death. Maybe it's Alzheimer's disease.
(Alzheimer: noun Pathology. a common form of dementia of unknown cause, usually beginning in late middle age, characterized by memory lapses, confusion, emotional instability, and progressive loss of mental ability.)
Simply unfathomable.
Black Swan
Abord the Yorikke!
In some cases, the words are even censured.
mjp
Founding member
What we think of him as a man is certainly irrelevant.
I do believe, however, that what we think of his editorial skills, or lack thereof, is relevant. If no one ever questions his, uh, work, on what was finally presented for public consumption, Bukowski will have been done a tremendous disservice.
If that sounds a little cryptic, it should be made a bit more clear soon.
I do believe, however, that what we think of his editorial skills, or lack thereof, is relevant. If no one ever questions his, uh, work, on what was finally presented for public consumption, Bukowski will have been done a tremendous disservice.
If that sounds a little cryptic, it should be made a bit more clear soon.
LickTheStar
Sad Flower in the Sand
He shuttered Black Sparrow Press, but he continued on to edit most (all?) of the subsequent Harper\Ecco collections of poetry.
He also MAY or MAY NOT (though I'm certainly leaning in one direction here) have made grievous edits to Bukowski's work over the years (and he certainly made terrible editing choices in Women... that much is clear).
He also MAY or MAY NOT (though I'm certainly leaning in one direction here) have made grievous edits to Bukowski's work over the years (and he certainly made terrible editing choices in Women... that much is clear).
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
I like John Martin because he helped Charles Bukowski to have more time to concentrate on his writing. Fortunately for all of us the original transcripts still exist so we can judge accordingly.
jordan
lothario speedwagon
you have to give martin credit for balancing the custom, handmade, and limited edition side of the small press/fine press with the demands of being a large-scale publisher selling to multiple commercial outlets, all without ever diluting the identity of what black sparrow press was. i will always look up to him for that.
on the other hand, the editing stuff is simply egregious, so much so that i am still trying to rationalize that bukowski made two versions of everything, just to give martin the benefit of the doubt, which i admit is grasping at straws.
on the other hand, the editing stuff is simply egregious, so much so that i am still trying to rationalize that bukowski made two versions of everything, just to give martin the benefit of the doubt, which i admit is grasping at straws.
Jordan, you sum up my thoughts based upon all I've seen and read. Excellent publisher, abysmal editor.
mjp
Founding member
All.
Hosh
hoshomccreesh.com
I think it was a pretty ballsy gamble to guarantee a guy a monthly income to just write. That is bad ass. And helping to get Buk out of the Post Office--that is very awesome. He believed in Bukowski's writing--and that is the very best you can ask for as a writer.
The posthumous collections (which MJP pointed out to me just today) now out number those published in his lifetime. And it's clear some heavy-handed editing took place after Buk's death. So at least 1/2 of the poetry we all know and love was probably better than the versions published in the later collections. And that's about the worst thing you can have as a writer....your life's work, your vision, and legacy trifled with after the fact. However it happened, and whoever is responsible for it.
Thank the stars for Wormwood and NYQ--and the many small press magazines over the years--with their original versions to compare against the later books.
The posthumous collections (which MJP pointed out to me just today) now out number those published in his lifetime. And it's clear some heavy-handed editing took place after Buk's death. So at least 1/2 of the poetry we all know and love was probably better than the versions published in the later collections. And that's about the worst thing you can have as a writer....your life's work, your vision, and legacy trifled with after the fact. However it happened, and whoever is responsible for it.
Thank the stars for Wormwood and NYQ--and the many small press magazines over the years--with their original versions to compare against the later books.
mjp
Founding member
Undeniably.
But -- would you quit your job right now for a promise of $600 a month? That's what we're talking about in today's dollars. Oh, and you live in Los Angeles and have a kid to support.
Take your time to answer.
The $100 a month story is pretty legendary in Bukowski and Martin's mythology, and as Hosh says, the fact that someone believes in something you are doing enough to put their own money on the line is tremendously encouraging (and Hosh also says helping him get out of the post office, which is accurate).
But there is so much written about Bukowski that simplifies his story down to "Martin paid him so he could quit the post office." That's like saying, "Linda saved his life." There are little grains of truth in each, but neither statement tells the whole story.
"100$/month for life", was a mere spoken gentleman's agreement, so J.M. was pretty safe from civil lawsuits from Buk.
And I read here somewhere that Hank even proposed that 'deal', because he was on the verge of being fired in the post office anyway, - didn't mention that to J.M. though.
But sure, it was and still is a risk to publish poetry. Carl Weissner got rejected from a big german publishing house, too, only Benno Käsmayer from the tiny Maro-press accepted, and sold well .... and the crowd cried for more and more and more ....
Anyway, Buk repeats again and again that he felt comfortable with J.M. never forgot how J.M. helped him when nobody cared for him and never had a wish to leave Black Sparrow.
he doesn't drink.
But the $100 was just the guaranteed minimum? If he could write full time then he could hopefully earn some additional cash from his writings?
why does that make me think, there's something in somebody's pipeline?
That's what the CPI Inflation Calculator says and it may be a reliable source.
But - wasn't that amount of 100.- actually based on Bukowski's real needs at that time? I seem to remember, I've read in the bios that Buk and JM sat together and started a calculation about how much Buk would need to go on without a job.
The problem with inflation/buying-power - calculators is, they're putting together a basket of many things, no matter what a particular person actually needs.
mjp
Founding member
The point I was making though, is that it was not enough money for Bukowski to live on (okay, live on, maybe -- if he stopped drinking and never left the apartment). If he hadn't had significant savings at the time, and been doing paid writing jobs, he couldn't have left the post office.
So it was part of what made quitting possible (and let's not forget that it is quite possible that Bukowski was about to be fired anyway). What I'm trying to dislodge from the collective consciousness here is the myth that Martin completely supported Bukowski with that "salary," because that's just not true.
As for the Consumer Price Index, every time I've used it to do calculations on sums of money in my own history, it seems to me that it's been very accurate. There isn't a better way to measure inflation than using the average cost of things most people consume. Bukowski wasn't buying ostrich feathers and platinum, he was buying food and beer and gas and insurance and paying rent and child support. The same things everyone buys.
Okay, maybe he bought more carbon paper than most of us...
Poetry only
------------
The Days Run Away Like Wild Horses Over The Hills
Mockingbird Wish Me Luck
Burning In Water Drowning In Flame
Love Is A Dog From Hell
Play The Piano Drunk Like A Percussion Instrument Until The Fingers Begin To Bleed A Bit
Dangling In The Tournefortia
War All The Time
You Get So Alone At Times That It Just Makes Sense
The Roominghouse Madrigals
The Last Night Of The Earth Poems
Bone Palace Ballet
What Matters Most Is How Well You Walk Through The Fire
Open All Night
The Night Torn Mad With Footsteps
Prose, poetry and prose, Other
---------------------------------
Post Office
South Of No North
Factotum
Women
Ham On Rye
Bring Me Your Love
Hot Water Music
There's No Business
The Movie: "Barfly"
Hollywood
Septuagenarian Stew
Screams From The Balcony
Pulp
Shakespeare Never Did This
Living On Luck
Betting On The Muse
The Captain Is Out To Lunch And The Sailors Have Taken Over The Ship
Reach For The Sun
Beerspit Night And Cursing
Bukowski was primarily a poet, and people who picked up on him early knew him as a poet. But I believe that more people who found about Bukowski in the past 30 years found him through something other than poetry. If new users here on the forum are any indication, very few people discover Bukowski through his poetry these days.
So it was part of what made quitting possible (and let's not forget that it is quite possible that Bukowski was about to be fired anyway). What I'm trying to dislodge from the collective consciousness here is the myth that Martin completely supported Bukowski with that "salary," because that's just not true.
As for the Consumer Price Index, every time I've used it to do calculations on sums of money in my own history, it seems to me that it's been very accurate. There isn't a better way to measure inflation than using the average cost of things most people consume. Bukowski wasn't buying ostrich feathers and platinum, he was buying food and beer and gas and insurance and paying rent and child support. The same things everyone buys.
Okay, maybe he bought more carbon paper than most of us...
Yes it is. But Martin wasn't betting on just a poet, he was betting on a writer. He made his deal with Bukowski with the understanding that Bukowski was going to write a novel (Post Office), and always encouraged him to write longer form work. If you look at the major BSP releases, there were actually 25% more non-poetry books than poetry collections:
Poetry only
------------
The Days Run Away Like Wild Horses Over The Hills
Mockingbird Wish Me Luck
Burning In Water Drowning In Flame
Love Is A Dog From Hell
Play The Piano Drunk Like A Percussion Instrument Until The Fingers Begin To Bleed A Bit
Dangling In The Tournefortia
War All The Time
You Get So Alone At Times That It Just Makes Sense
The Roominghouse Madrigals
The Last Night Of The Earth Poems
Bone Palace Ballet
What Matters Most Is How Well You Walk Through The Fire
Open All Night
The Night Torn Mad With Footsteps
Prose, poetry and prose, Other
---------------------------------
Post Office
South Of No North
Factotum
Women
Ham On Rye
Bring Me Your Love
Hot Water Music
There's No Business
The Movie: "Barfly"
Hollywood
Septuagenarian Stew
Screams From The Balcony
Pulp
Shakespeare Never Did This
Living On Luck
Betting On The Muse
The Captain Is Out To Lunch And The Sailors Have Taken Over The Ship
Reach For The Sun
Beerspit Night And Cursing
Bukowski was primarily a poet, and people who picked up on him early knew him as a poet. But I believe that more people who found about Bukowski in the past 30 years found him through something other than poetry. If new users here on the forum are any indication, very few people discover Bukowski through his poetry these days.
mjp
Founding member
The $100 per month was 25% of Martin's income. Maybe that's what you read. And that was their deal, 25% of Martin's income, it was never specifically $100 a month. That just happened to be 25% of Martin's income at the time.
I don't recall reading what Bukowski made at the post office, but a little Googling shows that a postal clerk in 1970 would have made about $7500 a year (plus health insurance and a yearly bonus), which was right around the national average wage. So when Bukowski quit he was probably making around $625 a month. More than six time's Martin's $100.
I don't recall reading what Bukowski made at the post office, but a little Googling shows that a postal clerk in 1970 would have made about $7500 a year (plus health insurance and a yearly bonus), which was right around the national average wage. So when Bukowski quit he was probably making around $625 a month. More than six time's Martin's $100.
mjp
Founding member
Yes!
DirtyJersey13
The Cruelty of Loveless Love
Nice one esart. Today, not only do you have to spoon feed adults, you also have to tell them what flavor they should be tasting. I never knew Buk or Martin personally, so I can't speak for them. In the end, I love Buk's writings, and that's enough for me.
mjp
Founding member
The end of that page is what really tells the story. I also find it a bit convenient that they tallied up his expenses and they were exactly $100 (and that Martin or Bukowski would remember those figures). You can see in letters that he paid more than $100 for his phone bills some months.
Good story though. Obviously. People still tell it.
Anyway, around and around we go. I think if he had to live on $100 in 1970 (after living on more than six times that amount for some time) he would have had to go back to a factory job. Or coconut man, or dog biscuit baker or...
Good story though. Obviously. People still tell it.
Anyway, around and around we go. I think if he had to live on $100 in 1970 (after living on more than six times that amount for some time) he would have had to go back to a factory job. Or coconut man, or dog biscuit baker or...
