I just joined..just found this site. I've been reading and watching Buk for some years and have developed quite a love for his raw speak...he dismisses all pretense...I was completely turned on by his description because it was so blatent. Particularly when he describes a womans legs and how it is so easy to imagine something magical up there besides a cunt.... I love that since then... I'm so hooked.. my friends that I have turned on to him readily call him one of the beats..??? I was wondering if any of his other faithfull readers do... Your opinions?
loving the raw (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter the sumthing magic
- Start date
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
Hi,
No one on this forum that I know of argues that he is beat, although that is something that academics seem to like to do. They seem to think that everyone HAS to be classified as something and beat seems to fit. For whatever no one can just be an original writer. Everyone has to belong to a genre. Tell your friends that he is NOT Beat. Ask them what they think makes him Beat. He wrote often for his dislike of the beats.
Bill
No one on this forum that I know of argues that he is beat, although that is something that academics seem to like to do. They seem to think that everyone HAS to be classified as something and beat seems to fit. For whatever no one can just be an original writer. Everyone has to belong to a genre. Tell your friends that he is NOT Beat. Ask them what they think makes him Beat. He wrote often for his dislike of the beats.
Bill
Father Luke
Founding member
Nail on the head.
Thanks chronic.
Thanks chronic.
I will ask them thanks... even just for the sake of drunken discussion
Thank you so much chronic... just thank you so much that was nice
Having read deeply into Kerouac & the other "Beat" Writers way before discovering Hank, I will state my opinion that Bukowski is NOT a part of that thing whatsoever.
The Beat Writers were followers to some degree. One egged the other on to write, even though they shouldn't have, i.e. Neal Cassady's book.
Bukowski was indeed an outsider from all of that. The only connection to the Beats, methinks is that he was born at approximately the same year as Kerouac.
The Beat Writers were followers to some degree. One egged the other on to write, even though they shouldn't have, i.e. Neal Cassady's book.
Bukowski was indeed an outsider from all of that. The only connection to the Beats, methinks is that he was born at approximately the same year as Kerouac.
Father Luke
Founding member
Nailed it.
I disagree
Since we were asked for opinons.
I disagree with the shouldn't have. In historical context this bootstrap support system worked well (and still does). Sure there was some crap but there were some interesting and important pieces that came out of those purported to be of this group. Insert favourite pieces here
Since there was no interent or forums for mutual support the only association possible was to move close to and hang around and support each other. it seems natural for a name to become attached;albeit belatedly in this case.
Sure Buk didn't associate with the Beats but he certainly benefited from their existing, the same way Johnny Rotten or (any musician) benefits from the Beatles contribution to music while disliking their work.
We're bigger than Jesus Christ
Good Poetry is like a beershit
God is poohbear
She ain't no human being
I don't recall the title, but the Bukoswki piece on Cassady driving with Buk in the back seat is Sumthing worth reading
Since we were asked for opinons.
I disagree with the shouldn't have. In historical context this bootstrap support system worked well (and still does). Sure there was some crap but there were some interesting and important pieces that came out of those purported to be of this group. Insert favourite pieces here
Since there was no interent or forums for mutual support the only association possible was to move close to and hang around and support each other. it seems natural for a name to become attached;albeit belatedly in this case.
Sure Buk didn't associate with the Beats but he certainly benefited from their existing, the same way Johnny Rotten or (any musician) benefits from the Beatles contribution to music while disliking their work.
We're bigger than Jesus Christ
Good Poetry is like a beershit
God is poohbear
She ain't no human being
I don't recall the title, but the Bukoswki piece on Cassady driving with Buk in the back seat is Sumthing worth reading
that's one of my favourite Buk pieces. isn't it a notes of a dirty old man story?
yep.
pp 23ff in my edition. It's the 4th essay/story in the book.
as for the Beat-topic:
Neeli wrote something like 'the Beats were a GROUP, always clinging together, while Buk was a loner, always dismissing to belong to groups'. (not verbatim!) I think that sums it up quite okay.
I'm sorry, I should have written, since I meant it this way:
"...even though, in one case, they shouldn't have, i.e. Neal Cassady's book."
The egging each other on thing is great, especially if you're part of one of those circles. But, still, Neal's book just sucked in my opinion.
I don't know why Cat makes such a strong point by saying so little, maybe it's the same way buk does... I really appreciate all comments back and I'll check it all out especially Cassady's take...It's funny... I made my friend watch Born Into This before he ever read any Buk and now he can't stand to read him.. thinks he's an asshole... I told him he has to love him for what he is but no dice... My boy Loves his words but hates his person...Maybe I should have given him the book first but after all he is a Beat whore... Your thoughts?
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
What beat writers does your friend like? They are all very different. Some would go along better with liking Buk than others.
btw. Has anyone here read "Junkie" by Burroughs. I thought that it was avery good book and very readable. After that he got into cut ups which are very, very hard to read. I would think that the folks on this forum would like Junkie, though.
Bill
btw. Has anyone here read "Junkie" by Burroughs. I thought that it was avery good book and very readable. After that he got into cut ups which are very, very hard to read. I would think that the folks on this forum would like Junkie, though.
Bill
Hey Magi, I can see how someone can get a bad impression about Hank because of Born Into This. There's a couple scenes in that one that disturb me strongly. Ok, one scene. The couch one. That really bugs me. That violence. Not cool with me.
And I've not read Junky. I tried reading The Exterminator but just couldn't get through it. It just made no sense whatsoever to me.
And I've not read Junky. I tried reading The Exterminator but just couldn't get through it. It just made no sense whatsoever to me.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
The Exterminator is "cut up" if I remember correctly. In other words, he took Naked Lunch and literally cut with a razor, sentences out and arranged them in a random order. This could get very confusing as he cut up Naked Lunch to get "The Ticket That Exploded" and cut up that one to get another one, so in the end, the passages are the same, but in a very random order that makes it very tough to just sit down and read the books. He had a theory with Bryon Gysin that doing this could predict the future as he would sometimes get random sentences that would then come true. It was all random, of course. Kinda like the Bible folks that thin that you can break the passages down to numbers and that this predicts the future. They did the same with Moby Dick and found the same results. Randomness sometimes produces surprising results.
I agree that they can be tough, but Junkie is a straight narrative and is very easy to follow.
Bill
I agree that they can be tough, but Junkie is a straight narrative and is very easy to follow.
Bill
CarversDog
RIP
BOS, both "Junky" and "Queer" are very accessible Burroughs books and conventional in style. I only recommend "Naked Lunch" to advanced Burroughs readers, and even then it's tough going at times. It remains the most disturbing book I've ever read, along with Kerouac's haunting "Visions of Gerard".
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
Yeah, if Naked Lunch is tough, it only gets tougher as they got cut up in later titles..
I never read "Queer". Nothing against it, but it never struck me as my kind of book. Now, heroin addiction... that is my kind of book.
Bill
I never read "Queer". Nothing against it, but it never struck me as my kind of book. Now, heroin addiction... that is my kind of book.
Bill
CarversDog
RIP
If you liked "Junky", then you would probably -- well, enjoy is not the right word but "Queer" is similar in tone and narrative style.
hehe. don't let your kids know!
Yes, 'Junkie' is a fine written and easy to follow book. As far as I know it was his first novel.
I've never read Any of his cut-ups due to lack of interest.
I think (like most) that 'Naked Lunch' is his Main work. But would DEFINITELY recommend to get familiar with his biography, esp what happened with his wife and the circumstances he lived in Tanger, BEFORE reading it. only Then, you can enjoy, only Then you can understand.
The movie 'Naked Lunch' btw is not a picturization of the book, but a picturization of the authors life at that time. Important to know, I think. And WHEN you know it, you can even enjoy the movie. Much.
oh, and PS:
in Germany, the main-translator of William Burroughs is one Carl Weissner!
pps:
I'd also recommend 'The Yage letters' (sp?)
written after Junkie but before Naked. He was searching South-America for a drug called 'Yage' and reported in letters to Ginsberg about this trip. Very interesting and a lively read!
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
You bet! I've read it several times through the years. First time as a teenager in the late sixties. It's a great book. I like the dry humour in it. I like parts of Naked Lunch too, although it's a different ballgame all together. Queer, I found boring but easy to read. Interzone, is easy to read too. It's a collection of short stories. One of the stories is called The Junky's Christmas, about a junkie who "scored the immaculate fix" during Christmas after a lot of hardship. Great story! Another story is called The Finger. Here Burroughs writes about how he cut off the end joint of his left little finger with a pair of poultry shears and ended up in the psychiatric ward of the Bellevue hospital!
I like parts of his writings except for his cut-up books. It's an interesting experiment to cut-up books and rearrange the words, but that's about it.
I've also read a letter book of his called, The Letters Of William S. Burroughs 1945 - 59, edited by Oliver Harris. If you like Junky, then I think you'll like to read his letters too because they date back to his junkie period. They're very candid! Many of them were written to Ginsberg and a few to Kerouac too. Besides drugs they deal with his writings, such as Naked Lunch and his time in Texas, Mexico and Tangiers. It's a great collection of letters almost 500 pages long...
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I take a while to get back sorry..I was...am drunk..whatever.. yeah the couch scene is fucked but...if you haven't seen worse than that...to not be at the point to call that silly and laugh at it..? would you really get it in the first place?..I get my friend that thinks Bukowski is an asshole because he really is....but he's the asshole that you can love because he, even knows it...take me to the races...
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
This couch scene was discussed in other posts. The short of it is that yes, it was a crazy drunken thing to do. It should not have happened. There is no doubt that he would not have done it if he was in his right mind.
Also, she could have had that part removed from the movie if it bothered her. It did give you a clearer picture of Buk; Tender, loving, jealous, insecure, etc, etc.
Just like almost everyone else.
Bill
Also, she could have had that part removed from the movie if it bothered her. It did give you a clearer picture of Buk; Tender, loving, jealous, insecure, etc, etc.
Just like almost everyone else.
Bill
That's well put, Bill. The only thing I would clarify is that it should have happened, because it did happen. The universe unfolds as it will and should. There's good and ugly, and always will be.
All of our "heroes" are as imperfect as we all are, they just write, sing, engineer, invest, print, fly and lay brick better than most. I am very uncomfortable with that scene, and I don't like that he did it, but Buk was what he was, and it's a part of what he was. We must accept reality with all of its imperfections. It certainly doesn't change the high quality of his writing; but for some, it may change their decision as to whether to read him.
All of our "heroes" are as imperfect as we all are, they just write, sing, engineer, invest, print, fly and lay brick better than most. I am very uncomfortable with that scene, and I don't like that he did it, but Buk was what he was, and it's a part of what he was. We must accept reality with all of its imperfections. It certainly doesn't change the high quality of his writing; but for some, it may change their decision as to whether to read him.
reasonknot
Founding member
The couch scene was uncomfortable for me too.You really get it the first or second time watching.Hank was past the self control point and the footage shows it.But,as he stated on film before,he was comfortable with being an alcoholic.Which is better than the"ain't no river in Egypt"types.
