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theeffects

theeffects

Curious (be honest) what readers/collectors were disapointed with...

First from the stand point of the 'writing', I'll give you mine; COME ON IN! For me it's the 'weakest' collection to date (I thought they were saving the best for last!?...)

Secondly production wise (covers, overall quality of book, etc...). I don't like the cover to OPEN ALL NIGHT, looks cheap, not a strong cover. Also the obvious, the production qualtiy/paper selection of BSP vs ECCO (no contest!).

Thoughts?
 
Most posthumous books are pretty weak, mostly because Martin relied heavily on the 70's unpublished/uncollected stuff -to me the weakest POETRY period by B.
I think the last book by Ecco -The People Look Like Flowers at Last- will be better because there are quite a few poems from the 60's -not my favourite period either, but better than the 70's for sure.
 
The problem I have with the last few is the build-up that the BEST was saved for last... That John Martin had been holding onto the cream of the crop for the final 5 releases. That just hasn't been the case.
 
I optimistically await THE PEOPLE LOOK LIKE FLOWERS AT LAST, it's still a bit of a wait (April 2007). Strange to think that's 'it'... but I have a 'feeling' ECCO/Harper will uncover, discover more 'lost', 'unpublished', etc.. poems.
Now let's get back to disappointments, not everything has to be positive!!! Where did you get let down by BUK or those that put out BUK???
 
disappointments? the proof is in the pudding. I'd have to say the book I'm most disappointed in would be the posthumous books ecco put out just because they're predictable. plus it pisses me off that they use they same exact picture of the author for the biography page over and over again. YOU TELLIN ME THEY CAN'T MIX IT UP A BIT? plus the pages just feel like a stiff wind would blow them to smitherines!
 
You're all going to think I'm crazy, but as far as presentation is concerned, the LouJon books (It Catches My Heart In Its Hands, Crucifix in a Deathhand) are my least favorite.

They are like precious works of ART to be appreciated only under proper conditions. Bah. The production makes the poetry seem like an afterthought, a necessary evil needed to fill up the pretty pages. Had there been additional printings with normal bindings later on, the initial over-the-top releases would have their place as the "collector's items," and the normal issue as "the ones you actually read." As it is, they are off-putting. Any time someone who appreciates Bukowski is at my place I naturally want them to see the older stuff, but when I put Crucifix down in front of them, they are afraid to touch it. That defeats the purpose of a book, in my opinion.

Content-wise, I would have to say that Bukowski started to lose me when the poems

became
like
this.

What would
have
taken
up
maybe
a line
or
two

in
his
earlier
days

now
takes
up
two pages.

I know that many people consider this to be the period when he mastered his craft and whittled the poems down to their raw essence. I just don't happen to be in that camp.

To me he was a storyteller, and the short lines of the later years only tell small parts of the story.
 
I think the period you mention covers 1985-1989 only. I really love the 1990-1992 period, when he got back to the longer line but with a more "poetic", wise approach to it.
 
Good eye!
You are right that 'style' definitely increased in the later years. Some may say 'less is more', I tend to agree there was more MEAT (and substance) to early books. Having said that, you can sure get through the ECCO stuff pretty quickly, quick reads! The Loujon Press items I'm afraid to open, so from a READING point of view I agree with you. They are expensive and worth a good deal of money, so they don't tend to make good 'reading' copies. I do (as I'm sure you do as well) APPRECIATE the craft and work that went into those publications, the paper selections were/are incredible. The Noel Rockmore etchings do very little for me, doesn't compliment Bukowski's writing style (in my humble opinion, i.e. MEANS NOTHING, so don't get PISSY for me critiquing!)
 
I'm with you on the Rockmore stuff not jiving with Bukowski at all. Crucifix is not a pretty book. To my eyes.

I appreciate the work that went into the LouJon books only because I do letterpress myself, so I know what's involved. But as far as the different papers and the layout of the books - they just don't do it for me.

It's like putting circus clown makeup on a beautiful woman. It's just wrong. ;)
 
Hi,
I just got an advance copy of "The People Look Like Flowers At Last".

I'll crack into it tonight and send a report...


Best,
Bill
 
mjp said:
You're all going to think I'm crazy, but as far as presentation is concerned, the LouJon books (It Catches My Heart In Its Hands, Crucifix in a Deathhand) are my least favorite.
Click to expand...

mjp, yes, we all think you're crazy, but you make some good points about the Loujon books. I've never actually read my copy of Crucifix cover to cover -- it's too stiff, too precious. When I want to read those poems, I go to the BSP collection they're in (if I can remember which one it is). I, too, never cared much for the Noel Rockmore etchings. I love the damned wraparound band on the book, though. And seeing Buk's words in letterpress is always a thrill. I like your idea that there should have been cheap, regular editions of the Loujon books. Not only would they make good reading copies, but they probably would have sold enough copies to subsidize the limited edition. I guess Webb wasn't a great businessman.
 
Hi,
Yes, it is an advance proof. I'm on page 23 and it is very good so far. Some older oned that I have read like "I live too near the slaughterhouse".

Mostly poems like this.

not
so
much
like
this.

So far, I give it a very positive review. More as I read more....

Bill
 
I was disappointed with the cover of "Septuagenarian Stew" - it looks like the hack job of some drip graphic designer who's got 'til 5 o'clock to come up with the goods.

I also have a love/hate thing with the cover of "The Night Torn Mad." Does anyone know where the photograph comes from?

On reflection - I think it's quite good. I think it's great, actually. I do, though, prefer "artwork" to photographs.
 
As long as we're talking about covers, the cover for The People Look Like Flowers At Last is pretty gruesome. In her defense, Barbara Martin has designed THOUSANDS of book covers. They can't all be works of art, folks.
 
Hi Mark,
The book lists Cassandra J. Pappas as the designer. It does not specify that this was for the cover, but I had heard that Barbara was not designing any more books.

Best,
Bill
 
the story I heard when BSP sold his B catalog to Ecco was that Martin would edit the poems and Barbara design the covers, but I could be wrong...
 
John Martin did edit the book, but it seems that Barbara did not design it. I read an article about Barbara in a graphic design magazine. I seem to recall that John was not able to talk her into designing any more covers.

She could sure design a stunning cover.

Best,
Bill
 
Bill, I have the ARC but didn't bother to check the credits on the cover. My bad. I am glad to hear that Barbara was not responsible for the design. What do you think of it? Disregard my comments and tell me what you think.

I couldn't find a copy of the design mag you referenced. I went to several newsstands here in the NYC and came up empty. Is the article posted online? Barbara's body of work is pretty amazing when you look at the totality of what she did. Remember, she was not only designing the Bukowski covers, but ALL the BSP covers.
 
Hi Nymark,
I'm not into the cover. It has a bit of a Matisse look to it. I would rank it as one of my least favorite covers. That being said, the poems are strong. A really great collection so far. Nothing about this book makes me think that I'll be anything but pleased by the whole book. I have read the random poem and they all seem damn fine.

Yes, you are right. Barbara designed all BSP books. It is really amazing. Some are better than others, but the body of work that she created is amazing.

The info about the article on Barbara Martin is as follows:

On pp. 106-111 of the September/October (2005) issue of PRINT
magazine there is a very nice article about Barbara
and the nearly 1000 book covers she designed for Black
Sparrow over a period of 30 years. A number of covers
are illustrated in living color! And the text is, of
course, very complementary. (Warning: the magazine costs $20.)

I went to Borders and sat down and read the article, being too much of a cheap ass to buy a $20 magazine. It is a good read and I'd buy one on ebay (They show up from time to time.....

Best,
Bill
 
You lucky guys with advance copies! Maybe my wife can snag me one (she works in a bookstore). Glad to hear it is a strong collection, and includes older poems. Good to end on a high note like this, although I have a feeling there will be many more Buk collections in the future as miscellaneous "lost" work is rounded up. And why not? As long as people want to buy it, they'll sell it. I'm like that when it comes to favorite authors; I'll read their shopping lists. It all is of interest -- biographically, if the literary value isn't there. The completists will always buy a new title by their favorite author. There'll be more, from other publishers if not Ecco.
 
the body of GOOD unpublished/uncollected poems amounts to another 3-4 books. sadly, the body of BAD unpublished/uncollected poems amounts to another 3-4 books :D
 
bospress.net said:
The info about the article on Barbara Martin is as follows:

On pp. 106-111 of the September/October (2005) issue of PRINT
magazine there is a very nice article about Barbara
and the nearly 1000 book covers she designed for Black
Sparrow over a period of 30 years. A number of covers
are illustrated in living color! And the text is, of
course, very complementary. (Warning: the magazine costs $20.)Bill
Click to expand...

Bill,
do u mean SEPT/OCT 2006?
 
Hi,
Nope, 2005. It was a year ago. Now would be the time to snag one on ebay. At 19.95 for the issue on the newstands, I could not bring myself to buy one.

Best,
Bill (cheap-ass) Roberts
Long Live the Guerilla Poetics Project!
 
cirerita said:
the body of GOOD unpublished/uncollected poems amounts to another 3-4 books. sadly, the body of BAD unpublished/uncollected poems amounts to another 3-4 books :D
Click to expand...
Ecco exists (as a subsidiary of HarperColins) to publish steady, if slow, selling literary works. That being their mission, Bukowski seems a natural choice for more future releases. But the release in April is the last one called for under the existing contract.

What would be really interesting would be something like the release Deutsche Grammophon did of all of Mozart's compositions. It was something like 150 CD's, completely comprehensive. I'm sure the same has been done for "famous" authors, but it would be cool to see for Bukowski, since the older stuff is prohibitively expensive and hard to find.

The collection could end with the volumes of uncollected/unpublished poems (what's 5 or six more books in a set like that? ha) and that would give you everything in one bite.

I know there are 100 real world obstacles to a release like that, I'm just blue-skying here.
 
cirerita said:
the body of GOOD unpublished/uncollected poems amounts to another 3-4 books. sadly, the body of BAD unpublished/uncollected poems amounts to another 3-4 books :D
Click to expand...

Cirerita: I haven't been through all the manuscripts, library collections of little magazinezs, etc., like you have, but I have a feeling there are enough stray/lost/forgotten poems out there for more than three BAD unpublished/uncollected books. My guess would be maybe five to ten collections. As you know, Buk wrote a lot of stuff and mailed it out to a lot of magazines. Many of them very small circulation mags that have all but been forgotten. Once all that stuff gets located, it could amount to -- what -- 500? a thousand poems? And then there are all the short stories, essays, letters to the editor. I think we'll be seeing new Bukowski books for many years. Or am I being too much the optimist? Something in me says it can't end...there'll always be more. The guy wrote a hell of a lot of stuff.
 
Rekrab said:
Once all that stuff gets located, it could amount to -- what -- 500? a thousand poems?
Click to expand...
I think that's a high estimate. The new database shows 4150 distinct works (poems and short stories), and I think cirerita has said he copied about 5000 pages during his research. It's unusual to come across things that aren't yet in the database. I know there's a lot out there still to be logged, but I'm thinking maybe 200 or 300 at the most. That would make the total number somewhere around 4500.

An impressive number, but some of the myths would have you believe he wrote ten thousand poems or something along those lines, and it's just not the case. The closet full of manuscripts that Martin and others have described as "towering stacks" - I don't buy that.

Especially early on, his output was nowhere near what it became after he quit the post office. You can see that he published the early stuff in many different places. He stretched them out.
 
mjp,

the list of UNPUBLISHED poems from UCSB only amounts to well over 1000 poems, not counting the uncollected stuff. I think 90% of those poems are NOT in your database. How do I know that? Well, when I started researching my only tools were Dorbin's, Fogel's, Krumanhsl and, of course, your database. Once I was granted access to the staff catalogues -way better and more complete than the ones available for students & professors when they log in to the library's public database- I typed all the stuff in my own database to start copying unpublished/uncollected stuff only. Thanks to the cheklists and your database I was able to list those 1000 unpublished poems which were not listed elsewhere. Sadly, I didn't copy all of them, just the ones which seemed useful to my dissertation.

Then we have the unpublished poems from Tucson, UCS, Berkeley, Suny, etc. Maybe we're talking about 1500-2000 unpublished poems which are not in your database.

Then we have a huge collection of uncollected stuff which is not either in your database nor in any of the checklists. Maybe another 500-1000 poems, who knows? At Long Beach they have a lot of uncollected poems from the 80's and 90's which are not listed anywhere... mags such as Whoreson Dog, Rhododendron, Misnomer, Big Hammer, etc, all of them with uncollected poems. Of course, you might be typing these entries -or similar ones- as I write this and then the final amount of uncollected poems NOT listed in your database will be smaller. I just have no idea.

it's sort of dizzying...
 
mjp & cirerita:

Obviously, you guys know a whole lot more than I do about the uncollected manuscripts. I have heard something I can't disclose that tells me there are a bunch more that are possibly in addition to all those you ennumerated. But I'm sworn to secrecy on this one.
 
cirerita said:
the list of UNPUBLISHED poems from UCSB only amounts to well over 1000 poems, not counting the uncollected stuff.

Then we have the unpublished poems from Tucson, UCS, Berkeley, Suny, etc. Maybe we're talking about 1500-2000 unpublished poems which are not in your database.

Then we have a huge collection of uncollected stuff which is not either in your database nor in any of the checklists. Maybe another 500-1000 poems, who knows? At Long Beach they have a lot of uncollected poems from the 80's and 90's which are not listed anywhere...
Click to expand...
I stand corrected (see my previous post where I reserve the right to be wrong 60% of the time ;)).
 

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