Perception of THE DOORS (1 Viewer)

Why can't it all mean nothing? Like a Doors song?

Simmer down - just joshing, you know.
Show me the way to the next whiskey bar! My calliope needs tuning! Har har.

Still kidding.

Okay. I finally took the bait. It was the fine print that lit my fire. ;)

To any who are not a Doors' fan, skip this thread, as you will be bored out of your fucking mind; and, also if you're 27, as you may croak upon reading. Like Jim, Jimi, Janis, Brian Jones, "Pigpen," and Pamela Morrison (common-law is recognized at BUKnet, right?).

Let's start by saying the halcyon days of dissing The Doors are over. Or should I say, "Your ballroom days are over, baby, night is drawing near...shadows of the evening, crawl across the years..."

As you and I are chronological contemporaries, I find your subtle barbs good-natured and amusing (you must be a closet Doors' fan). I'm sure you listened to The Doors on AM radio, much like I did, back in the day. Hell, even my father listened to The Doors (what was on radio in the old Buick station wagon). I'll never forget driving passed (past) Woodstock just after the event, seeing all the garbage strewn everywhere, and a Doors' song coming on the radio. If I only had my camcorder back then...

Now before I put the meat on the table, let me first state that I am not a fan of all Doors' songs. Some are silly and meaningless. Sure. And some are purely pop tunes that, while at a party, I can listen to; but to said song, have no real emotional attachment. But it makes for easy listening; geesh, who really wants to listen to the song, "The Soft Parade?" To me, that's where Mojo does about the worst Lennon writing imitation ever. YUK!

But let's identify some of the gems.

Break On Through (To The Other Side)
Crystal Ship
LA Woman
Maggie M'Gill
Moonlight Drive
When The Music's Over
Riders On The Storm
Roadhouse Blues
Soul Kitchen
Spanish Caravan
The Changling
The End

While The Doors don't spin on my cd as much as they used to, I still find time to listen the some of these amazing tunes. And, I could argue if some of these should or shouldn't be on a Doors' list like the one stated above, for lotsa reasons. The End, written about a bad relationship in high school "” and being written about by writers as some metaphysical breakthrough in lyrics...; stop, I get it. But it's a great fucking song, and defines an era. At least Francis Ford Coppala thought so "” and the remix with the helicopter blades is fucking haunting. Era-defining like, "All Along The Watchtower" by Jimi, sorry Bob, if you're reading "” but you said it.

On that note, let me sidebar for one second. Because I like what Willard said; and no, it's not the rat:

"Saigon... shit; I'm still only in Saigon... Every time I think I'm gonna wake up back in the jungle. When I was home after my first tour, it was worse. I'd wake up and there'd be nothing. I hardly said a word to my wife, until I said "yes" to a divorce. When I was here, I wanted to be there; when I was there, all I could think of was getting back into the jungle. I'm here a week now... waiting for a mission... getting softer; every minute I stay in this room, I get weaker, and every minute Charlie squats in the bush, he gets stronger. Each time I looked around, the walls moved in a little tighter."

Back to the perception of the Doors:

So while in a previous post you did give Manzarek kudos, I believe, for ditching a bass player for his Fender Rhodes keyboard "” I'm assuming you know in studio it was much different, as The Doors did record many of their studio albums with bass players, notables, including: Jerry Scheff, Doug Lubahn (who also played with Clear Light), Harvey Brooks, Kerry Magness, Lonnie Mack, Larry Knechtel, Leroy Vinnegar, and Ray Neapolitan.

So please, let's give Mojo and the band some props.

They were the first American band to record six straight gold albums, I believe.

And weren't named, as is the common misconception, after Aldous Huxley's, "The Doors of Perception," but rather after William Blake's line: "If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infininte..."

Just a tombstone of thought; as reflected by my avatar...

Pax
 
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mjp

Founding member
The Doors just don't work for me. Nothing appeals to everyone. I know all about their history and their context. I was a little kid, but I was there too. And I've read all the Morrison books and even hung out with John Densmore talking about Nyabinghi drumming. I just don't like their music. No big deal.

My tastes are very narrow and lowbrow. I am not a good judge of quality. I mostly dig sloppy, ragamuffin street music. If your favorite band met in college, they are probably not on my radar. Hence, no Doors. Doesn't really mean anything about anything though. It's just music.
 
What are you're fav bands? ((on hold))

Hey, when I hear someone like you say "it's just music" I'm gonna chill. Hope all OK. I'm used to the fire-pisser.

Pax,

homeless mind/b
 

mjp

Founding member
Oh jeez. I don't know. How do you answer that? I've been a musician (some would argue that I shouldn't claim that label) for more than 30 years and a music lover as long as I can remember. I don't have any favorite groups. Or rather, I have hundreds of favorite groups.

If you said, "You can only listen to one group from now on, forever," that group would be the Wailers. The Bob, Peter and Bunny version, and the later versions after Peter and Bunny left. That is a rich vein to mine, and almost 30 years after I started listening to them, I can still hear tracks that I've never heard before (remind you of any writers you know?).

Right now I am immersed in the 1968 - 1972, pre-world-wide-fame Wailers. They recorded literally hundreds of songs before anyone outside of Jamaica (or Jamaican expats in England) ever heard of them.

Oh, that's Bob Marley and the Wailers, in case anyone was wondering what the hell I was going on about.
 
Funny, I've always considered The Soft Parade to be my favorite Doors album. Then again, I also like '70-'73 ELP and early Yes.

I don't listen to much of the Doors anymore, but even as over-played as it is, Riders on the Storm is a very solid piece of work.
 
Funny, I've always considered The Soft Parade to be my favorite Doors album.

JM: Dig what you say; my fav 'bums are probably first and last, with second, third. And then, everything in betwixt, no order. Make sense?

To qualify your thinking, you should find this of interest "” relative to your opine:

The Soft Parade is the fourth studio album by the The Doors, released in 1969.
The album met with some controversy among fans and critics due to its inclusion of brass and string instrument arrangements, as opposed to the more stripped-down sound of their earlier recordings. Fans also complained that The Soft Parade followed the lyrical formulas of previous albums, and thus was not very innovative. In reviewing the 40th anniversary remix (for the August 2007 issue of Downbeat Magazine) correspondent Dan Ouellette thought otherwise, declaring it to be "the apex" of the band's creativity.


While I liked the premise of the "Soft Parade," the words didn't marry my expectations. Nor did the music "” together, they fell flat. It may just be me; wanting more...and getting less. And Krieger wrote five of the nine songs, as Mojo was consumed, rumor has it, with his poetry book.

The album was top 10; and the song, "Touch Me," became famous for reasons other than The Doors probably wanted...think Miami, I believe.
 
The Doors-first album I had, first concert I saw. One of my favorite bands.

What bugs me is people either idolize Morrison or judge him harshly on his irresponsibile life.

He was a word guy and some songs had crummy lyrics and other were the best ever. Some of the best song lyrics in my opinion.
 

mjp

Founding member
I guess I just see a missed opportunity with Morrison, and wonder what sort of damage he could have done if he'd had a real rock band backing him. Say, if he was fronting Hendrix's band, or Led Zeppelin - insert the name of any good, loud rock band in there. I mean, can you imagine Hey Joe via Hendrix and Morrison?
 
I perceive it that the Doors lacked vitality, agression and intensity on the whole. Yes, there were screaming moments owned by Morrison but the general partition of sound behind him was after something else, something (often pleasurably) passive; even in boogie mode. I do like the lyrics...they make for good pictures even if they dont make for narrative. And if we're entertaining supergropup fantasy, I wish he had fronted the Amboy Dukes and put a proper Morrison-job on "Journey to the Center of the Mind".
 
I guess I just see a missed opportunity with Morrison, and wonder what sort of damage he could have done if he'd had a real rock band backing him. Say, if he was fronting Hendrix's band, or Led Zeppelin - insert the name of any good, loud rock band in there. I mean, can you imagine Hey Joe via Hendrix and Morrison?

I have a bootleg album from long ago in storage somewhere, and I believe this is it. I haven't listened to it for over a decade, probably longer. But this is Jimi and Mojo in New York City, at the Scene, a club, in NYC. (Again, I think this is what I have, but not totally confident...mine may have been from The Ondine - or something like that; redundant: not sure...)

[This video is unavailable.]

Supposedly, Mojo was so fucking drunk that he was holding onto Hendrix's leg onstage during the entire set. He'd been known to slither around on the ground; so it rings true. If you give this a listen, you will hear how fucked up he was. Coherency was at a loss...

But it is a good beginning painting "” let's call it a sketch "” where you can fantasize about what it would have been like to hear Mojo's vocals parked next to Hendrix's guitar.

Fascinating point to ponder. Damn.

I'm gonna have to agree and disagree with your post. I wanna have my cake and eat it too, you see.

I think Manzarek pulled the best outta Mojo "” most of the time. And I think that Mojo was buds with RK; so that probably helped when constructing their art, their music. As far as JD, word I get from people in the know, far superior knowledge about drummers than I will ever have or claim, is that he could have been replaced by a drum machine. That's fucking cold. And again, I didn't say it. But being a fan of Bonzo, I have never really challenged the point either way (think Moby Dick; thanks, Melville). But their music was so different, I won't take that to the bank and try to deposit it. Drummers here, feel free to comment.

Now, imagine Mojo and Jimi. Yes, I can. But who's going to sing? I guess they both would. Mojo being the frontman; Jimi right there, too. I can think of a bunch of groups with multiple lead guitarists, but never really one with two Frontmen. So, if Jimi would be cool with being the guitar god he was, and turning the keys over to Mojo, it may have worked. Could you imagine Jimi as backup? Or second fiddle in vocals? That's the bridge that needs to be built "” then crossed. I can't viddy them like Simon and Garfunkle "” I know you dig.

Now how about some other bands he could have been the frontman for? That's fucking intriguing. Take away Robert (Plant) from Zep(?), don't know. He is fucking brilliant. And his range is so different than Mojo's. But, could Mojo have been the frontman for Zep? No doubt. I'm trying to hear, "Dazed & Confused," in my head with Mojo singing it. Being a bluesman, it could work. But which Mojo voice? From LA Woman, or The Doors (Album)?

So I totally see your point. And my cake tastes good. Thanks for putting it on the table. Delicious to think about...
 

hoochmonkey9

Art should be its own hammer.
Reaper Crew
Moderator
Founding member
I just had a vision of Jim Morrison fronting The New York Dolls.

it was awesome.

right now they're doing Trash. David Johansen has just climbed up onto the stage in his Ronnie Spector get up and he and Morrison are fighting over who's going to be the first to pretend to fellate Johnny Thunders. uh oh. Morrison just undid Johansen's bra.

kids, cover your eyes.
 
Hi Guys&Gals, How's it goin'? God bless the Doors!:eek:

Yeah, I know. Jim was a drunken drug crazed nutcase,Manzarek just LOVED his keyboard way too much!....Where the FUCK is the base?(a?question I asked at 13 years old)....
...I really love the Doors. I am not ashamed to admit it. I know that one of the reasons I dig them now is because I wasn't into them as a teenager,(the whole missing BASS thing). I also, in my grown-up life, have found a strong love and appriciation for clasical music AND THE FRENCH!:eek:
...The Soft Parade ended up being what it was, for better or worse, because all production was taken out of the Doors' hands.(As far as I recall).They were all pretty unhappy about the direction that the album took, and of course, Jim was so fucked up they all just did the best they could to get through it...
I've just never thought that 'The Soft Parade' should be the LP to judge them on. IF you want to judge, then you should listen to LAWOMAN-which,(IMO) is the definitive Doors LP. If Jim Morrion had not died, and the band would have brought in a bass player,(which was in the works), the Doors would have been one of the greatest Rock/Modern Blues bands of all time.:eek:
I really do understand WHY people don't like them. The whole 'circus music' aspect, with that weird keyboard and all. And seriously, fuck Manzarek for his 'Novel' and the 'DOORS2000...
"I woke up this mornin' and I got myself a beer...' Bukowski would have appriciated THAT!:)

It's funny that this subject came up in this thread. "What is Art again?"... who the fuck really knows? Grins and Good Cheers...CRB:)
 
Does anyone know if Morrison ever met Bukowski. I'm sure he had to be aware of him at least. (though I don't see any influence poetically). Maybe through the LA Free Press?
 
Hi Guys&Gals, How's it goin'? God bless the Doors!:eek: Grins and Good Cheers...CRB:)

Hello, M'Lady:

Great to hear from you again! Not that you're speaking to me; but a man can dream, right? :D

It's really a moot point when it comes to The Doors.

One of the great rock bands of all time. Period.

Sure, Zep, Stones, and a laundry list of others. But not as many shirts in the wash as one may think...

The Doors opened and closed in a brief period of time. And the times mattered, reflected in their music. Would, "Light My Fire," mean anything today? Other than a catchy tune, probably not. But it meant something then. Ask Ed (crick-necked) Sullivan. He personally cancelled five or so shows ('cause Mojo sang the word "higher" on national TV "” which by today's standards, is quite lame).

But Mojo didn't give a fuck. He was hanging with Warhol, et al. Ed Sullivan was part of the machine, die-and-cut to help him achieve his aspirations, whatever the fuck they were. Cosmic; earthen, mythological; don't know, don't really care.

And Mojo didn't waste his talent; he was just wasted; it was his religion "” good or bad, dependent upon what one thinks.

Bacchus; Dionysus; whomever...

He believed in his own mythology.

Exactly the same way Bukowski did. And created the myth, the legend, the martyr, the one people will talk about until the end of days...

Sir Charles just happened to live longer, write more.

But did he (BUK) make a bigger impact?

That's a good question to ponder...

(Damn, mjp, that har har put the album back on, scratchy needle and all...)
 
I have always wondered about this. Not if they met, I really doubt it- BUT- did Morrison READ Bukowski? (ie-Notes of A Dirty Old Man...in the LA Free Press). Morrison was living and reading at that same time... as far as I know, there are no references to ANY connection. (But my guess is, that at some point Morrison would have read Bukowski. Good chance... Did BUkowski know/ hear/care about Morrison/The Doors? Doubtful. He didn't seem to like/care all that much about- "Rock-N-Roll" CRB:)
 
didn't buk write about meeting the manager of cat stevens, or something like that? methinks he was very media savvy, and kept his finger on the pulse; the one that wasn't holding a fifth (not beethoven).

<edit> and my guess is mojo read buk; but it wasn't his style of writing; remember: he was into blake, probably kerouac, etc. and what's funny is how kerouac disliked hippies and all, while they loved him...that, is paradox, baby.<edit>

<edit #2>: i'm also happy to say that this thread has passed the "what i'm having for drinking" number in replies and views. it restores my faith in humanity. har har. <edit>
 
HM, you need to get some Wormwood Reviews. Some great work by Buk contemporaries such as Richmond, Gerald Locklin, Lyn Lifshin, David Barker and many others are well-represented.

Anyway, Steve Richmond was the co-writer and/or writer, co-signed with Buk, of the famous (and fantastic) Fuck Hate broadside that shows up now and again.

Buk also wrote a "famous" intro to Richmond's Hitler Painted Roses which is worth a read if you can find it.

http://www.pbagalleries.com/search/item.php?anr=180972&PHPSESSID=5ea37cd03f584554fe93d6d58be899eb&PHPSESSID=5ea37cd03f584554fe93d6d58be899eb
 
See...I didn't know that.(THANKS!) Though I did know of the Michael McClure/ Morrison connection.(I KNOW, no big woop!-anyone into The Doors/Morrison/The Beats- Knows this.
I'll say it again; I have always wondered if Morrison read Bukowski.CRB:)
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
If Morrison hung around with Richmond, then it is impossible to imagine that Richmond did not try to turn Jim Morrison on to Buk. Steve Richmond was quite the Bukowski admirer.

Bill
 
Who is Steve Richmond, Bill? Interested here...
Steve Richmond watched Bukowski 'shrink once'..."reduce in size"... Yeah. See- 'Born Into This'. :D

If Morrison hung around with Richmond, then it is impossible to imagine that Richmond did not try to turn Jim Morrison on to Buk. Steve Richmond was quite the Bukowski admirer.
Yes. But there is nothing written in any of either's Bios. to indicate that they were ever even aware of each other. Though it is not written, I do believe that somehow/someway, they were familier with each other. BUT- there are many experts/people here that would offer better speculation than me!:)CRB
(I guess what I'm trying to say- If Bukowski and Morrison met- don't you all think we would have heard about it?CRB:)
 
Did Buk ever have much to say about any pop stars specifically? Or famous athletes? I know he gambled at the races...but his world didnt need any name dropping (except when he's in the mood to ramble about past writers). In 1970 you couldn't NOT know who Jim Morrison was...but it was quite possible not to give a damn about what he did.
 
HM, you need to get some Wormwood Reviews. Some great work by Buk contemporaries such as Richmond, Gerald Locklin, Lyn Lifshin, David Barker and many others are well-represented.
PS/jm:

I just pulled out two "Wormwoods" that were immediately accessible.

"Beauti-Ful" and "People Poems."

I'll have to take a look through them and see if any of the writers you mentioned are part of them.

Thanks for the info!

Yes, Bukowski said they were not art.
?

What does that mean? G-Love, that's an interesting broad stroke I've never read before. Wow! Can you site it? Love to read... Thanks!

Did Buk ever have much to say about any pop stars specifically? Or famous athletes? I know he gambled at the races...but his world didnt need any name dropping (except when he's in the mood to ramble about past writers). In 1970 you couldn't NOT know who Jim Morrison was...but it was quite possible not to give a damn about what he did.
OK impostor.

Who stole Scribbler?

This is NOT how he writes. Please return him to us, or I will call the police immediately.

:D:eek::rolleyes::confused::(:):mad::D:cool::p
 
Apologies. Old English (NOT the furniture polish, the "ale" of 800 fame) was on sale 1.85 a 40... Its unbearable...always been. Got me in a funk.
 
I think Morrison had the perfect band for what he was into, they were more jazz/blues players than rock and he was into the blues. I think LA Woman was there peak, musically and lyrically.

I have no doubt Morrison was aware of Bukowski, Morrison was very well read and lived in the same city- but I have no idea what his take on Buk was, he did like Kerouac and Celine but who knows.

I'm not a huge fan of John Densmore, drummer of the Doors, but to say he was simple or easily replaced my a machine makes no musical sense and I am a musician.

And lastly, homeless mind, do not put down "the drinking" thread- I'm sure Buk would want more replies on that than the goddamn "dinner" thread.
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
HM,
Steve Richmond won't be in those two books as they are Bukowski-only issues. I think that Richmond & Locklin are in almost all of the other issues, though!

Bill
 
This thread got me thinking about my connection to "The Doors" and that period of the late 60's in America. I never thought that Morrison or the other group members were "great musicians" by any stretch of the imagination. But because their music coincided with this great eruption of passion and madness and energy and "higher states of consciousness" and my own adolescence, they made an impact on me. I would say "Light My Fire," "This is the End" and "Riders on the Storm" stand out as good music by any definition. But it's clear there was alot of very thin stuff otherwise...
And Morrison could be seen as much as a "symbol" for me of the Nietzschean (he apparently had read The Birth of Tragedy, according to the biographies) idea of the ecstasy of music, and the "shamanistic" idea of the artist as striving to reach transcendence through poetry, music, alcohol, love...
One also senses sometimes that those of us born in the Fifties who grew up in Southern California, that our life has a kind of "sound track."
Play "Satisfaction," "California Girls" or "Riders on the Storm" and BANG you are right back there... That's the power of alot of music--it brings back the time....
 
Great points, David.

Makes me think of all the cool songs about California:

LA Woman, Doors
California Dreamin', Mamas & Papas
Going to California, Zep
San Francisco (Be Sure To Wear Some Flowers In Your Hair), Scott McKenzie
California Girls, Beach Boys

I'm sure the list is long, but these come to mind first...

Pax
 

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