Questionable Buk manuscript

bospress.net

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Hi,
Have a look at this manuscript. There are a couple things about this that scare the shit out of me.

1) Private Feedback. Why? Only 10 comments, why make it private?
2) Corrections do not seem to be in Buk's hand. I have never seen him write like this and am 99% sure that this is not his hand.
3) Left edge on page 2. I have seen obvious forgeries with this same "creasing" effect on the left side.
4) $45 shipping for two pieces of paper? Now I know how you Europeans feel when buying from some of us in the US!
5) Signature is a bit "shaky". He signed these fast and the "B" looks like it took a LONG time to write.
6) The date does not seem to be in Buk's hand.

http://cgi.ebay.com/CHARLES-BUKOWSKI-ORIGINAL-POEM-SIGNED-1977_W0QQitemZ7042915508QQihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Just to make it clear (and NOT get myself sued), I am not saying that it IS anything but the real thing. Personally, I would not pay $50 for it, though as I have a feeling that there is something not right about this....

Best,
Bill (no middle name this time) Roberts

p.s. Anyone interested in viewing an OBVIOUS forgery, please send me an e-mail to bill@bospress.net or a PM on this forum. I have a couple scans that have shown up over the years on ebay. Some are truly pathetic. Some are not bad, but are still a bit "off".
 

hank solo

Just practicin' steps and keepin' outta the fights
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This poem was included in Love Is A Dog From Hell. Which was in print in 1977. Bukowski dated his poems like this MM - DD - YY, and if that were true, the manuscript thats on ebay was written in december 77...?

How often did he change his typer? Hardly ever. In fact, did he change it once between 1970 and 1980?

Look at the nines on this 1977 manuscript here on bukowski.net :
The whores, the people....

Compare that to the one on ebay.

I say, Bill, you are right to be suspicious.
 

bospress.net

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Hi Hank Solo,
I have heard that he changed it in about 1974-1975, when John Martin bought him a new one as the old one was failing. I have heard that Factotum was the first book that was written on this new typer. So, he probably would not have changed his typewriter between 11/77 and 12/77. Plus, your mention of the timing of the book and poem is a great issue. I have not e-mailed the seller yet, but will feel justified after a couple more comments....

All best,
Bill
 

nymark

Over 500 posts
I am in complete agreement. I wouldn't pay a nickle for this just on the signature alone, not to mention the aforementioned reasons Bill provided. eBay is a wonderful tool for buying and selling, but it's a lot like the unregulated, undisciplined wild west. Buyer beware!
 

bospress.net

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I think that if people were not SO greedy, they probably could fool most of the people most of the time. If they got an old ream of paper from the 60's, found out exactly what typewriter Buk was using then, and did not correct them or sign them, they may have luck. Of course, they get greedy and decided to write their own paycheck. I have a few books here that are obvious forgeries. They loked ok on ebay, but were clearly wrong when they arrived. When I asked for my money back, I was refunded and the seller said that he was not interested in having the books back (even though he claimed that he bought them as signed from a reputable bookstore). I have thought about having a stamp made up that says "FORGERY" and then stamping them and selling them as plain books. Without that, I am not willing to let them into the open market....
 

bospress.net

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Here they are: I must say that these were MUCH fuzzier and farther away in the listings. In the one on the white paper, the forger did not even take the time to erase their pencil marks. The took their time tracing in pencil and then went over it in sharpie. Again, I got my money back, so these cost me nothing.... I'd like to have them go out as great books, but will need to deal with this BAD forgery first (seee above)...


best,
Bill
 

bospress.net

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nymark said:

Is the first one real and the second one fake? The first one looks more real. #2 is so fake that it makes my nuts hurt....

Bill
 

nymark

Over 500 posts
I think that they're BOTH not quite right! Certain authors are quite easy to forge due to the simplicity with which they wrote their names; Truman Capote, Graham Greene, Jack Kerouac and even poor old Hem. Other authors present more of a challenge to fake (thank God for us!).
 

ClassIntellectual

Founding member
nymark said:
Certain authors are quite easy to forge due to the simplicity with which they wrote their names; Truman Capote, Graham Greene, Jack Kerouac and even poor old Hem. Other authors present more of a challenge to fake (thank God for us!).
makes you wonder whether those with apparently bad penmanship are actually just securing against simple forgeries....
 

bospress.net

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I notified the seller and ebay and asked them both to do themselves a favor and pull the listing. If it plays out the way it usually does, the seller will not pull it and ebay will do NOTHING. As long as they make a buck, they seem to care nothing about items that are obvious frauds....

Bill
 

mjp

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Absolutely fake.

The manuscript on eBay is supposed to be from 12/6/77, but here's an authentic manuscript from the same date:

https://bukowskiforum.com/images/misc/poem1977-12-06-afterwards-aka-scarlet.jpg

Compare the number 5 in the third line from the end of the real manuscript to the 5 in the address on the fake. Not even close.

There's something else that gives it away, but I won't say what it is here and make a forger's job easier.
 

bospress.net

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It looks like ebay actually closed this one down..... It is not available on ebay anymore. If the bidder had ended it, it would have shown as ended. The fact that it is wiped from existence means that it was an action from ebay. That is surprising. Maybe there is a Buk furum member that works for ebay? That certainly would explain ANY action on this issue.

Bill
 

mjp

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I also reported that one and contacted the seller, pointing them to this thread. Maybe others here did too. Looks like eBay listened this time.

To me that's several magnitudes worse than selling some ripped DVD. I wish I could remember the seller's name...but I'm sure we'll see it again if they try to relist.
 

hank solo

Just practicin' steps and keepin' outta the fights
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hmmm... signed in a hurry?
first k in bukowski looks most suspect.
and the 'sword' (flower?) and bird? not as well formed as others i've seen...

cheap though
 

bospress.net

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Cirerita,
That is a tough one. I would not buy it. It looks like it has issues, but I would not stake my reputation on it being a forgery. What are the other opinions?

BIll
 

mjp

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That signature looks authentic to me, if a bit rushed (or written standing up or something). The bird has very characteristic lines...I would think that it's actually tough to fake those doodles, odd as that might seem.

But I have to admit I've never seen that orange cover on that book...
 

chronic

old and in the way
Over 1000 posts
I've seen the orange cover, as well as a blue one and a brown one and a green one. They are not first editions as so many sellers (including this one) seem to think and I'm not certain that City Lights had even started printing the versions with color covers when Bukowski was alive. Maybe... but it would have been close to the time of his death.

The signature looks fake to me... the last half of "Bukowski," especially the "ws," is too well defined and, as hank solo mentioned, the "k" doesn't really look right either. The bird sketch is good though.
 

bospress.net

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Hi,
Notice that the seller changed the listing to hide the buyers identity. This is a great tactic to keep people like me from warning the winning bidder. I said that I was not 100% sure that this was fake, but the scales are tipping. If the seller was sure that it was legit, he would not have hidden who was bidding. Given this, someone out there is set to pay a few bucks for a bona-fide Bukowski (probably signed last week)....

Unless the seller is somewhere in this forum? If so, come on out....


Bill
 
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