relinquishing the market (1 Viewer)

the only good poet

One retreat after another without peace.
I have posted below a transcription (for better or worse) of a portion of dialogue from a 2005 episode of the South Bank Show, that might be of interest. The particular episode looked at the glamorisation of madness, and investigated if there were a connection between madness and the work of art.

Melvin Bragg. One of the things that this is, is a success culture and it's a money culture. Do you see these two as being a bar to the development - a fuller development - of people that you would like to see or hope to see...the money and the success?

Yes, I think one of the things that we might look to poetry for now...because poetry is marginalized, which is the best thing about it, it is freeing people now to work their own way. People are only going to be poets now if they really want to be, because there is very little money in it and there is very little glamour. That seems to me to be promising, because the only pay off now is writing a good poem, and that seems to hold within itself the possibility that people will be freer with their own thoughts. They will be less preoccupied by winning, or by being charming, or indeed by selling, because they've got nothing to sell. I think the new thing that might be happening is the new sane artist will not be seeking recognition; that, whereas the mainstream of artists are all going to be seeking recognition, and fame, and fortune, the new sane artist will actually disperse with precisely that quest in order to do their work.

M.B. Why is that important?

Because it frees you...Once you relinquish the market - and that doesn't mean to say you don't earn your living: you've got to earn your living. Once you relinquish, one way or another, the saleability of your art now, you are then freer I think to have your own thoughts; because in so far as you are interested in marketing what you do, you have to be preoccupied by a fantasy of what people want. It makes you compliant. It makes you inevitably servile to a fantasy of the audience; whereas, if you have no audience, that interest drops out.

M.B. But having no audience can often mean for some people that they haven't time to do the work they want to do: they have to work in a bank, teach...do jobs which tire them, and therefore, when they come to do the work they want to do, the energy isn't left over to do it.

I can see that, but I also think that may be now the deal: which is that people have to find other ways to make their living if they are going to produce real art. It seems to me that there is a kind of sane art that, without ignoring the complexities and difficulties of life, make one feel that the project is worth it. I mean art, it seems to me, is against suicide, and that's a value. It's like what Richard Ford says in The Sportswriter, "When you lose all hope, you can always find some more." I think that's what art is about, in a way, it's somewhere about hope. Even the most hopeless artists, who are telling us how terrible life is, are actually making us feel better, when we know how terrible it is. So there is something about art that involves acknowledgements of difficult things.

M.B. But is it art's job to make us feel better?

I think it could be one of arts jobs to make us feel that more life is worth having.

M.B. So you think that sanity is now the new project?

I think sanity is worth thinking about now because there are so few articulated alternatives, to either a glamorised version of madness or a despairing version of madness. So I think it might be worth producing descriptions of what about ourselves we think might be valuable that is not a version of passion, possession, elsewhereness, otherness, and so on.
 
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it's the relevant and interesting part...

It was.

This was very comforting to read:

They will be less preoccupied by winning, or by being charming, or indeed by selling, because they've got nothing to sell.

I think the new thing that might be happening is the new sane artist will not be seeking recognition; that, whereas the mainstream of artists are all going to be seeking recognition, and fame, and fortune, the new sane artist will actually disperse with precisely that quest in order to do their work.

Thanks once again.
 
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Then there is another consideration...

Jim Knipfel
(never read him? oh, let me dare suggest you do...)
wrote about it.

Paraphrasing, He said that if you ever write about
anyone, it doesn't matter if it's in some out of the
way internet 'zine, or a wipe-the-sweat-off-you,
punk rock rag given away on street corners, if
you write about someone they will read it.

He cites, in Ruining it for everyone (49 used & new available from $0.01),
I believe, writing a in a greasy New York 'zine
about how he was going to interview for a job with
a couple of losers. He wrote his impressions of
them, and they were none too sweet.

When he got to the interview, the losers were
holding the 'zine.

Bukowski knew about this, about no matter who
you write about, they will know, and they will read
what you write about them, when he wrote Women.

He wrote it anyway.

That, Ladies and Gentleman, deserves applause.
 
Hey Father, what's become of Knipfel? I used to laugh at his columns in the New York Press. They no longer list him on the masthead. Had one of his books...the name eludes me.
 
Hey Father, what's become of Knipfel?

Still around. If you search his name there you may
still find his work. In the meantime, go

H E R E click on: JIM KNIPFEL's SLACKJAW

You will be shown all his current work. Last one
was posted two days ago. So, yeah. Still around.

Had one of his books...the name eludes me.

Slackjaw comes to mind.
Quitting the Nairobi Trio, also comes to mind.

- -
Okay,
Father Luke
 
I think the idea of "relinquishing the market" is built into poetry because there is no market. Selling 1,000 copies of a poetry book is considered a wild success. And the author would make about enough money off that book to buy a pair of pants and dinner for a few friends. I don't think art and poetry belong together in this discussion.

This strikes me as an argument or discussion between intellectuals anyway, theorizing about concepts and imagining what each other would look like naked. In the real world there are lots of artists working without an eye toward any market. No one knows about them because, well, obviously. How would you? But I know one or two. And maybe you know some too.

An artist working really hard to enter the market is much more common, of course. Who wouldn't want to break plates or stack paperclips or whatever and get paid millions of dollars for it?

But I have similar arguments with "art" people all the time, because I have a naive and idiotic ideal of real art being somehow pure - but nothing that comes to my attention in an art setting is "pure." Some artist had to have the ambition to get it into my line of sight.

I think a more interesting topic is a marketplace where more artists could thrive, or at least make a living, as opposed to the inbred lottery system that currently determines "$ucce$$" in the art world.

But for that to happen, a lot more "regular" people would have to be interested in buying art, even for a couple hundred bucks - or hell, fifty bucks - and the fact is, most are not. Just like there aren't a thousand buyers out there for your poetry book.

Making art more "pure" or detaching it from a marketplace is not going to change that.
 
I think a more interesting topic is a marketplace where more artists could thrive

I like that argument. It can happen. And, in my
opinion, there is nothing wrong with ambition.

That market place has to be created. Again, in my
opinion there is nothing wrong with ambition.

So, the artists who learn how to market deserve
the benefits.

As to the quality, authenticity, etc. of the art work?
Well, with a created market there is nothing to
compare it to, and after Uncle Joe buys the
first piece of art, first book, first... what's left is
the artist/writer/poet's own worth.

I don't know if any of this is making any sense.

It's not easy to be a financial success as a writer,
poet, artist, and it can be done. More so today
than ever before.

See rubyred's question of internet networking
which she worked so hard on and got an A.

Comedians use it to build monster sized audiences.
Look at the Dane Cook MySpace phenomena.

Amazing potential today. Really amazing.
It takes mucho hustle.
 
I agree with mjp's 'romantic' notion of art being pure, and think it is where the art comes from that can remain pure even when being 'marketed.' that it doesn't really diminish the art itself just because we found it through whatever means. maybe some friend of the artist put it out there (though I see how this argument/position devolves into a theoretical back and forth), leaving the artist free from the 'onus' of marketing. etc.

that said, I think the base function of art is communication between humans across time, across culture, across language in many cases. even when the artist is creating purely for himself, with no eye for 'selling' it, the goal is still an internal communication, an attempt to 'make sense of things.' so, if an 'artist' truly desires to communicate, to reach out and make an honest connection on some weird cellular level, they must take the next step after the moment of creation to push their babies out into the world and let em do their job. or set em on fire and float em down the river, I guess.

as for the creation of a market, it is surely possible, but it must be realistic. I think it's possible to sell 1000 poetry books every year with dedication and effort (of course, the work has to be there, another discussion though) and a cultivation of genuine supportive relationships between art maker and art consumer. it is a question of where a person chooses to put their dough and what they choose to keep alive in our society. does art matter? then we have to all of us reach down and pull out our wallets so artists can eat. do we all have extra money? hell no, but if we're online, we have some extra dough, if we tip a glass of beer with friends we have extra dough, and that little bit, concentrated and combined with a few others is a recipe for sustainable success. as long as the artists themselves aren't willing to part with a few sheckles to support their own artform though, in whatever manner they see fit, subscriptions, book purchases, paintings, photographs, etc, then such a community will be difficult to build. it's possible, and is in fact being done all over the place, but it also begs a redefiniton of financial success. it might mean an artist only has to work part time instead of full time.

the padre is right though: it takes "mucho hustle." and ambition is surely not a bad thing. it was ambition that drove Miles to take his horn far into the unknown, and hustle that got him to the bandstand with Bird.

I'll shut up now.
 
Yeah, cunningham, when I started reading your post I thought "that's right, just look at Coltrane". Then you mention Miles at the end.
He'll do :cool:
 
Interesting point MJP, I have noticed that issues regarding a 'marketplace' for poetry are being discussed more and more, though there are no solutions being offered. As Father Luke said the internet has created more opportunities, in this world of instant gratification many people are getting ahead of themselves in thinking that they can get an audience but forget that luck and craft are more important contributing factors.

I think viral marketing and creating mystique are vital. Looking at the artwork of Banksy for instance. Relatively simple and to the point, aimed at no one in particular yet in plain view of the public. The idea of unexpected shock has been attempted also by the Guerilla Poetics Project, though you wonder if rather then sticking a poem in a book it would be just effective to go in a carpark and put a poem underneath a windscreen wiper. Distinctiveness and originality are vital today getting just a few seconds of somebodys attention will probably prove more valuable than building an audience
 
The idea of unexpected shock has been attempted also by the Guerilla Poetics Project, though you wonder if rather then sticking a poem in a book it would be just effective to go in a carpark and put a poem underneath a windscreen wiper. Distinctiveness and originality are vital today getting just a few seconds of somebodys attention will probably prove more valuable than building an audience

It is not the idea of unexpected shock that the GPP is after. If that was the case, they would put a picture of a penis in the bible.

But seriously...

The goal of the GPP is to get the small press out there to those that would love the writing. That is the reason that operatives are told to place them in books that have a similar feel.

Bukowski has millions of readers. I would bet than a substantial amount have no idea about the "littles" that were a huge part of his life for 50 years. They buy the books from Borders and think that he sat on a barstool and wrote the poems FOR the book that they are reading. If they knew that great writers were writing today in the small press, they would seek out the work. This would make it realistic for a small press release to sell 1000 copies. rjs & t.l.kryss did it with UCANHAVYOURFUCKINCITYBAK by d.a. levy. Of course, they had media attention because of the arrests and had people like Ginsberg supporting the cause, but they managed to sell 1000 copies of this massive book (which just now went into a second printing).

This may some day allow a small press poet to succeed in the poetry business through royalties and not by 50 hours work weeks teaching others about poetry.

Will it happen? Who knows. Is it worth putting the effort into? Hell yes it is.

Bill
 
Sorry Bill. I didn't phrase that well, what I meant was for poets to take the initiative and to spread their own work via inventive means, to create a similar 'Wow' what the heck is this feeling

I appreciate your work and was not belittling by any means the effort that you and many others have put towards the GPP
 
if an 'artist' truly desires to communicate, to reach out and make an honest connection on some weird cellular level, they must take the next step after the moment of creation to push their babies out into the world and let em do their job. or set em on fire and float em down the river, I guess.

Li Po, innit.

as for the creation of a market, it is surely possible, but it must be realistic.
(... )in fact being done all over the place, but it also begs a redefiniton of financial success.

Success is such a personal thing. Financial and otherwise. However, as Bill will point out below,
the marketplace is already there, and just waiting
to be tapped.


I think viral marketing and creating mystique are vital. Looking at the artwork of Banksy for instance. Relatively simple and to the point, aimed at no one in particular yet in plain view of the public. ....

Great point. (I would choose the phrase "word of mouth" rather than viral marketing, however. Personal preference.) And done for the free, and the fun of it. That is not to say that Banksy is not without motive (see cunningham re: communication, in his above poast).

It's like what was posted earlier:



They will be less preoccupied by winning, or by being charming, or indeed by selling, because they've got nothing to sell.

I think the new thing that might be happening is the new sane artist will not be seeking recognition; that, whereas the mainstream of artists are all going to be seeking recognition, and fame, and fortune, the new sane artist will actually disperse with precisely that quest in order to do their work.

Once there is no hope, hoplessness vanishes, and
the artist is free to create without any purpose
save for the pure act of creativity, if that makes sense.

The goal of the GPP is to get the small press out there to those that would love the writing....
This would make it realistic for a small press release to sell 1000 copies.
This may some day allow a small press poet to succeed in the poetry business through royalties
Will it happen? Who knows. Is it worth putting the effort into? Hell yes it is.

Hell yes.
It is.

- -
Okay,
Father Luke
 
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By the way?

I can think of several examples of what might be done by
a motivated writer . . .

See

Carol Es

Miranda July

Amanda Oaks

Three very different artists.
Three very different marketing strategies.
Three very remarkable artists.

Successful marketing and artistry may co-exist most beautifully.

- -
Okay,
Father Luke
 
Sorry Bill. I didn't phrase that well, what I meant was for poets to take the initiative and to spread their own work via inventive means, to create a similar 'Wow' what the heck is this feeling

I appreciate your work and was not belittling by any means the effort that you and many others have put towards the GPP

Hi,
I certainly did not take it in any negative way, so no worries. I do not usually get offended easily, in fact, it is pretty tough to offend me as I have a pretty thick skin. I just wanted to explain the theory. I'm sure that there are even some operatives of the GPP that are not completely 100% aware of the true goals. The goal of the GPP is actually simple. To give poetry to people that will appreciate it.

All best,
Bill
 
I've heard of her! Some fancy place in Paris just bought one of her books. And some oil baron's museum in up on a Los Angeles hill has a couple. It's crazy what you can do when you have a work ethic without an "off" switch. ;)

I'm still looking for the "on" switch.

Yes, different strategies.

And I'm sure my constant harangues against the art establishment aren't doing her any favors.
 

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