Shooting In Oakland (1 Viewer)

Gerard K H Love

Appreciate your friends
It says something about the BART police. It would not surprise me if the officer who shot that man had been rejected by other police agencies.

That was murder, plain and simple.
 

jordan

lothario speedwagon
in oakland, they're saying that if that police officer doesn't go to jail, there will be widespread rioting on the level of LA in the early 90's.
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
no justice, no peace. Once people do not feel powerless they do not see the need to take it in their own hands.

Had the victim been white, the cop would get a stiff sentence. Expect to see the cop fired and get 12 months house arrest. Now, if BART police are not cops, but are security guards with guns, he could get more, but who knows.

In nearby Prince Georges Co, MD there is one officer who, throughout his career has shot and killed three unarmed black people. Not only was he not fired for incompetence, not prosecuted, but he was PROMOTED to Sargent.

Bill
 

Gerard K H Love

Appreciate your friends
I worked with a guy who was rejected 10 or 15 times from becoming a Police Officer at several cities and counties. He kept trying and trying with no success. The agencies who turned him down did us a favor. The guy would have killed someone for nothing. A car deal didn't go his way and if he had a gun he would have shot me and maybe a few others. Maybe BART would hire him.
 

Bukfan

"The law is wrong; I am right"
Is'nt the police motto to "Serve And Protect"? - "Serve And Protect" my hairy ass, as Buk's father might have said.
The BART police did'nt even need three policemen to arrest a compliant young guy sitting down at the floor with his hands up. It's "just" another case of police brutality and unnecessary police killings. Will it ever end?
 
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jordan

lothario speedwagon
well, the guy resigned instead of being forced to give a statement as part of the investigation. my feeling is that he is going to plead guilty to involuntary manslaughter on the defense that he thought he was pulling out his taser (yes, this is his actual defense... nevermind why you would need to taser someone who was face down on the ground with their hands bound). the family will also probably win their $25 million unlawful death suit against BART. any less and the city is going up in flames.
 

Black Swan

Abord the Yorikke!
Last month, an unarmed 18 year old kid was shot here in Montreal . He was playing some board game with other youngsters when they aprehended him. The result is that the kid is dead and the investigation by the fefderal police proved that the municipal police did not use excessive force. Go figure.
The kid was hispanic.
 
Jordan, I unfortunately think you're right, in regards to the 'taser defense'

It would be murder if the guy who shot him, wasn't a cop.
Easy as that.
These 'cops' are not human. They are a bunch of animals, and should be treated as such.
Skinheads in uniforms.
It reminds me of a Clockwork Orange. Just a group of guys going around and terrorizing innocent people.

This 'waste of sperm and egg' who shot this guy, should be shot the same way.
Or perhaps tortured.
Fuck, America knows how to do that anyway.
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
well, the guy resigned instead of being forced to give a statement as part of the investigation. my feeling is that he is going to plead guilty to involuntary manslaughter on the defense that he thought he was pulling out his taser (yes, this is his actual defense... nevermind why you would need to taser someone who was face down on the ground with their hands bound). the family will also probably win their $25 million unlawful death suit against BART. any less and the city is going up in flames.

Jordan,
When I saw the video, I told my wife that he thought that he pulled the taser. No one would be that stupid to shoot an unarmed, handcuffed man while he was restrained by officers and in front of witnesses, and to do it that casually. Still, there are two HUGE problems 1) Why would he taser a subdued prisoner, unless it is just because he could? and 2) is the officer that incompetent that he cannot tell the difference between a taser and his pistol? Still, I think that it was a mistake; One that he and the city should pay dearly. He shoudl do prison time for involuntary manslaughter (Murder 3rd Degree) and the city shoudl pay the family $25,000,000 tomorrow and admit that the officer was an incompetent danger to every citizen unlucky enough to run across him. It will cost them 10 times that if this gets out of hand.

Normally cops make sure they are not being watched when the murder prisoners.

Bill
 
This 'waste of sperm and egg' who shot this guy, should be shot the same way.
Or perhaps tortured.

See, now we are discussing politics on Buk.net. I can never condone the death penalty for any reason. It smacks as the scared reaction of an insecure (and financially selfish) populace refusing to acknowledge human nature in a vain attempt to change it. And it's barbaric.

Indeed he's a despicable waste of human life; but that's part of the trip, you know?

Please carry on...
 
Sure, let him rot in prison for the rest of his life, but that won't happen.
Or stuff him in with a crowd of crazies at the nut house, but...that won't happen either.
 

jordan

lothario speedwagon
i agree about the death penalty, ps. also, it turns out that the video cameras at the fruitvale station have no recoverable tape... which means that if you commit a crime there and hop on a train right away, they can't go back and find out what you look like. meaning, the only security the cameras offer is if the criminal is dumb enough to stay in the station until the BART cops run up the stairs onto the platform to arrest him.

also, the fact that all of oakland now knows this makes fruitvale probably the least safe station in the entire BART system.
 
Look, Purple, I'm not advocating the death penalty in any way.
I don't agree with it either.
It's draconian.
However, when it comes to cops, I myself, prefer street justice.
I have very little sympathy when it comes to them.
They neither serve or protect anyone or anything.
Or at least in my experience with the law.
 

number6horse

okyoutwopixiesoutyougo
Magick - please DO NOT judge all cops' behavior by the behavior of this guy. First of all - in my opinion and in the opinion of others - transportation "police officers" or security guards are not held to the same hiring standards as real cops. Boiling it down, real cops know when to draw their weapon and how to use it and how to properly carry it on their person ! That is:handcuffs, and non-lethal weapons on one side of the belt and the gun on the other. No confusion and no (or very little chance) of making the tragic mistake this idiot made. I have a lot more thoughts on this but will have to save them for tomorrow night. God help this young man's family. And I hope things are handled properly, or Oakland will burn to the ground.

J & J, please stay safe.
 

Gerard K H Love

Appreciate your friends
Magick - please DO NOT judge all cops' behavior by the behavior of this guy. First of all - in my opinion and in the opinion of others - transportation "police officers" or security guards are not held to the same hiring standards as real cops. Boiling it down, real cops know when to draw their weapon and how to use it and how to properly carry it on their person ! (snip....)...........................................................................

J & J, please stay safe.

I was trying to make the point that police agencies try to weed out hot heads in the hiring process.
The city shouldn't be paying so much, so their insurance company will make them check everyone out from now on. Yes, too little too late. I too wish the people of Oakland peace.
 

justine

stop the penistry
on wednesday night, i was walking home from the train station and was just a few blocks from the riot. at the time, i didn't know what was going on - there were 4-6 choppers hovering overhead, including one with a searchlight, and i saw half a dozen cop cars. from what i read in the news, i had some pretty good timing: i walk the same way every time, and the riot was progressing down towards the area i walk through. if i'd been 30mins late i would have been walking right through it.

one of the terrible aspects of this is the number of people cashing in on the controversy: from interviews i read, many of those involved in wednesday night's riots were just along for the thrill of vandalising and intimidating. as far as i can see, this only fuels the fire: cop is accused of racism (most of the stories pivot on the fact that the victim was black); people riot; innocent bystanders are caught up; racist cops have more ways to justify their beliefs to themselves.

will violent protest get results? will it get this cop arrested for murder? maybe. but it sure won't solve the underlying problems or provide any kind of long term solution to issues of racism and police brutality. and it certainly won't bring that poor guy back to life.

maybe i'm just naive because i come from a country where the last (and i think only) riot we had was over the south african rugby team touring nz in the early 80s. and nz cops don't carry guns.
 

mjp

Founding member
As someone who was way too close to the Los Angeles riots on a couple fronts in 1992, I can tell you that a lot of the people burning and looting may have been angry and frustrated in general, and a few hundred of them may have even had strong feelings about the King verdicts, but for the vast majority of the people in the streets over those six days, the opportunity to burn shit down and get some free stuff was the main draw.

Of course these things are rarely really about the specific incident that sparks them, but rather just a fuzzy nonspecific rage at everything being fucked up. But do they get results? No. All they do is create more vacant lots in the poor parts of town. No one in Brentwood or Pacific Palisades lost a minute of sleep in 1992. And I don't know Oakland, but let me take a wild guess and speculate that any destruction did not happen in the most affluent part of town.

A (modern) riot is just an unbridled mob scene. I don't see much difference between someone burning a car after a sports team wins a world championship and someone doing it over this kid in Oakland or Rodney King. Burning up a random car is not a logical - or even a passionate - reaction to injustice. Burning down City Hall is. Striking at the seat of power, wherever that abusive power lives. But you don't see that. Not in America, not in the last 50 years.
 

Digney in Burnaby

donkeys live a long time
A (modern) riot is just an unbridled mob scene. I don't see much difference between someone burning a car after a sports team wins a world championship and someone doing it over this kid in Oakland or Rodney King. Burning up a random car is not a logical - or even a passionate - reaction to injustice. Burning down City Hall is. Striking at the seat of power, wherever that abusive power lives. But you don't see that. Not in America, not in the last 50 years.

Rambling thoughts:

The last riot that I noticed in Vancouver was after the Canucks lost (yeah, lost) the Stanley Cup final. When was that? 1995? Now the cops are ultra paranoid about crowds (New Year's, closing time, fireworks, etc.). Great we're going to have the Winter Olympics in 2010.

I remember noises made over Rodney King up here, protests, blahblahblah. And a few noises made more recently over a Polish man who died after being tasered a couple times at the Vancouver airport. Someone caught that one on a cellphone video as well.

Didn't Bukowski have something to say about the Watts riots of 1965? I know Frank Zappa did, "More Trouble Coming Everyday". (You know people I'm not black, but there's a whole lot of times I wished I weren't white.)
 
There is no solution. Good or bad. Who should have the guns? The cops? The people? Both? My first four words ring true to me. In this country, we have a right to bear arms. And corruption is abundant everywhere. It sits right next to stupidity; smiling.

Fuck, I don't have any answers.

Give peace a chance. JL

Pax,

homeless mind
 

number6horse

okyoutwopixiesoutyougo
Correct.

Just ask Rodney King.

Your comparison only makes sense in the most general terms. That is: out-of-control law enforcement leads to bad consequences. Yes, I agree.
But did Rodney King get shot and killed ? No, he didn't.

Of course that does not excuse what those L.A. cops did, but their behavior - as barbaric and cowardly as it was - doesn't compare with an undisciplined, poorly-trained, rent-a-cop reaching into the wrong holster, drawing what he thinks is his taser, aiming, and from a standing position over a prostrate suspect, pulling the trigger on his sidearm. Sorry, but the likelihood of that happening with real cops is very low.

And when I say "real cops", I mean officers serving on city, county, or state police departments who have been carefully screened and properly trained. I know that no system is perfect and that some nut-ball/socio-paths will slip through. Also - there are those officers who start out fine but go nuts after too many years on the street. It is an unbelievably stressful job that requires heroic performances - large and small - every fucking day. How the majority of these men and women get through their workday is amazing.

Over the years, at my workplace, my co-workers and I have depended upon both "real" cops and "pretend" cops for our security.
Believe me when I say that the difference between a real cop and a pretend cop is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug (to paraphrase Mark Twain for the first time on this board ?)
 
mjp it is baffling to me how rage amongst the working classes is always misdirected; the fat bastard pulling the strings is never properly chopped up into a fine powder and scattered to the hot desert winds, instead the neighborhood burns...
 

number6horse

okyoutwopixiesoutyougo
Yes - STORM THE BASTILLE, you fucking pussies !
Are you aggrieved ? Exploited ? Well...prove it !

But seriously, mjp has a good point regarding City Hall uprisings vs. neighborhood looting of businesses that actually serve the underserved.
Nothing is gained by the vandalism of Sun-Ho-Park Dry Cleaners, or Vasupati Patel's Taxi Service. I don't know that ANYTHING can really be gained from rioting.

However, let us consider the case of The Orange Revolution in the Ukraine.
Those people were fed up and just basically had a sit-in
that neutralized the city, the nation, the government, the transportation, etc... In the middle of winter. Without guarantees of assistance. And that took huevos grandes my American friends.

I say this simply out of admiration for a group of people
who successfully dislodged an oppressive government.

[your own results may vary]
 
Remember, remember the fifth of November the gunpowder treason and plot. I can think of no reason why the gunpowder treason should ever be forgot.

Guy Fawkes night would make more sense.
 
six horse, you're right, a national strike would have a dramatic effect, but let's face it: fear and desperate rage rarely morph into smart, socially conscious protest, and almost never is properly directed.

mostly shit gets burnt the fuck up, and when people are crazed and have nowhere to turn, they often feast upon each other like Common Orcs. but if shit's got to burn, then by god, why not grab those Villager Brand(tm) Torches and head to the slumlord's/good ol' boy politician's part of town?

ahh, of course, brutality never solves any problem like this, as "The Man" always has bigger clubs and more bootheels than you do, Citizen, and is more than prepared to defend their position. I'd love to see the nationwide sit in, but folks have jobs to save from destruction and homes to hang onto if they can afford their soaring mortgages and children to keep out of harm's way and cellphones to answer and television to watch, etc. etc.

I myself prefer to protest by sitting very still in a dark room with a cold beer and a pistol, waiting for the tide of ugly to come down my street; as I understand it, the apocalypse is right around the corner, always...
 
Most of existence is protest. Overcoming, thwarting, holding-off, escaping, sustaining, compromising and bending (but not breaking) is how an individual spends most of his energy. But there are episodes available, secret ones, that THEY dont have to know about. The illuminati gathered there is all yours if you can get it; if you have the nerve, the courage. Chase THAT...instead of justice.
 

hoochmonkey9

Art should be its own hammer.
Moderator
Founding member
I was watching the PBS documentary on New York last night, the episode with the Draft riots in 1863. one of the historian talking heads mentioned several riots throughout history and said (I'm paraphrasing) that regardless of whether the cause is just or not, a mob is just that, a mob. all individual mentality is gone, and they are hell bent on destruction without reason.

I thought that was spot on.
 

number6horse

okyoutwopixiesoutyougo
six horse, you're right, a national strike would have a dramatic effect, but let's face it: fear and desperate rage rarely morph into smart, socially conscious protest, and almost never is properly directed.
Agreed.

mostly shit gets burnt the fuck up, and when people are crazed and have nowhere to turn, they often feast upon each other like Common Orcs. but if shit's got to burn, then by god, why not grab those Villager Brand(tm) Torches and head to the slumlord's/good ol' boy politician's part of town?
Yep.

ahh, of course, brutality never solves any problem like this, as "The Man" always has bigger clubs and more bootheels than you do, Citizen, and is more than prepared to defend their position. I'd love to see the nationwide sit in, but folks have jobs to save from destruction and homes to hang onto if they can afford their soaring mortgages and children to keep out of harm's way and cellphones to answer and television to watch, etc. etc.
True.

I myself prefer to protest by sitting very still in a dark room with a cold beer and a pistol, waiting for the tide of ugly to come down my street; as I understand it, the apocalypse is right around the corner, always...
True. Creepy.....but true.

Most of existence is protest. Overcoming, thwarting, holding-off, escaping, sustaining, compromising and bending (but not breaking) is how an individual spends most of his energy. But there are episodes available, secret ones, that THEY dont have to know about. The illuminati gathered there is all yours if you can get it; if you have the nerve, the courage. Chase THAT...instead of justice.
You might be joking or waxing poetic but I'll ask anyway: Do you really think there's anything worth pursuing more than justice ?
 
One man's justice might be another'man's undoing. There are winners and losers in justice. It might be well out of ones hands what brand of it he is being dealt. So, an individual will be better off reaching for purities that do not attempt to satisfy the collective. There are rewards available to a gifted consciousness that have NOTHING to do will the ups and downs and moral tapestries of all the busybodies everywhere. There are "rectifications" available through immaculately detached interactions...unrequired creative responses to callings so far away that they HAD to come from inside. Sometimes "justice" is not the solution to injustice. Sometimes "solutions" are not the solution...as more wonder gets snapped solidly into place.

Waxing poetic? Maybe, Joking? people laugh at different things. And as "justice" is just some more wrongs getting righted...well, it leaves much to be desired.
 

number6horse

okyoutwopixiesoutyougo
And as "justice" is just some more wrongs getting righted...well, it leaves much to be desired.
But that's the entire point of justice (not revenge or "street justice"). Wrongs getting righted within the context of a larger organized system. Ideally that system can be corrected from the outside.

Your above post is thoughtful and carefully considered. It deserves more than what I am dashing off here, so I'll try again later tonight.
 
Never read any Rand, M, but I did listen to alotta Rush back in the day. (1st album was the best...the "Working Man" song, aw man... Rock n Roll!).

...do you suppose THAT is where I get all these thoughts? Rush is the culprit? Hmmmmm. I'd thought I'd toasted those cells long ago.
 
There's a few reasons I choose to no longer reside in a "urban" area. The above mentioned is just one. An unfortunate chapter, but one that will be well read. So many, how do theychoose?
 

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