The New Poems (1 Viewer)

[grahamcooke]

Hello.

I've been a Bukowski fan for years, first discovered him by mistake in a bookshop I used to work in etc etc etc... I now have most of his books.

Having talked to several different people about the posthumous publications, I'd like to get a few opinions on them. I have Bone Palace Ballet and Open All Night, a few more. I've just ordered the last three (The Flash Of Lightning, Slouching Toward Nirvana, Sifting Through...).

The last three titles have been published in the UK/Ireland under the horrible titles of "New Poems, Book 1, 2, 3, 4...". The US editions are much more pleasant books to own. The UK editions don't start with the early posthumous work, as they should have, but with the later books. Thus, the poetry is somewhat weaker than it could be. I'll happily read anything I can, but maybe this isn't the best introduction to newcomers who've seen Factotum (which was released accross most of the cinemas here thankfully).

So- publishing any scraps they can find just to make some extra cash, or justified collections that should definitely see the light of day. What's your opinion?

 

[MarkDB]

Hi GrahamCooke: I'll just throw my two cents out there though I think there are more critical minds in this forum than mine when it comes to making specific judgments about the quality of Bukowski's posthumous work.

I have read all of his work published before he died and only a few of the posthumous ones including Bone Palace and most recently Slouching. I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised how much I liked both. My initial attitude toward the posthumous work was that it must be stuff he didn't think was worthy of publication while he was alive and that it was just going to provide income for Linda and Black Sparrow. Now that I have read several, I would say that there doesn't seem to be any particular difference in quality between the "living" poems and the "dead" poems. I have come to the conclusion, perhaps mistakenly, that he wrote so prolifically that there was no way to practically publish it all while he was alive.

The fact is that the quality, whatever that really is, is uneven in his early stuff, his middle stuff and his late stuff. A lot depends on which Bukowski you like, too, i.e., the badass, motherfucker Bukowski, the down-on-his-luck, trying to make some sense of it all Bukowski, the I can't tolerate academics Bukowski, the I love driving my BMW and going to the track every day and soaking in my hottub Bukowski etc. Depending on the collection, you can get more of one or two than the others. If you like all of the Bukowskis then you will probably like all of the posthumous work as well as the living work.

In some of the collections from his lifetime, I have wondered why he incuded this poem or that poem because I thought they sucked. In the posthumous collections I have been amazed by some of the poems and wondered why he didn't publish them in earlier collections. Again, some of the others on this forum could state more educated opinions or facts on this, but I'm sure a lot of his "living" collections were a matter of following his editor's recommendations at the time.

 

[Brother Schenker]

So- publishing any scraps they can find just to make some extra cash, or justified collections that should definitely see the light of day. What's your opinion?

Bukowski obviously thought they were worthy of being published or he wouldn't have saved them for posthumous publication.

I agree that the poems of his later years had less energy & pizzazz & colour, but those qualities were replaced with gentleness & elderly wisdom & long distance reminiscings about his youth.

The later poetry may be perceived as weaker but it completes the man's catalogue. I would loathe having access only to someone else's judgment about what's worthy to read. I wouldn't want just the popular stuff, I'd want the whole enchilada.

Bukowski was very much the epitome of autobiographical journalism via the forms of poetry, short stories, novels, and letters, and it would be a double drag if we were denied the last pieces of the puzzle.

By the way, his letters were the best out of all his writings (with the rare exception of poems like "Something for the touts..."). His letters were explosive fountains of unbridled & uncensored expressions from his fiery heart and troubled mind. Written like he had nothing to lose and no one to offend, his letters were tits, Jack.

AL NEWPORT

 

[cirerita]

mark,

That was Martin's hand at work. He always decided which poems would be published in a given book, from early on. It's not like B had no say, but he never chose the poems nor the order, etc. It was ALL up to Martin. All decisions were his.

The only thing B did from time to time when sending Martin a batch of poems was saying something like: "I think XXX poem is good" or "The last poem stands out from the rest", etc. Also, very occasionally, he pleaded with Martin to NOT to publish a particular poem he had already sent him.

 

[mjp]

Bukowski rarely chose what would be published. I believe Cold Dogs in the Courtyard is the only book he selected the poems for. Otherwise it was the choice of a few key people; Jon Webb, Outsider publisher, John Martin at Black Sparrow and Marvin Malone at Wormwood review.

I name those three because it seemed that after Webb's books were released (It Catches My Heart in its Hands and Crucifix in a Deathhand) little magazine editors would publish virtually anything he sent. And then when the collections started coming out, it was up to Martin to weed through all the published work and pick what he thought was the best stuff.

This is a generalization, of course, and in the earlier years his lesser work was probably rightly rejected, and the early Black Sparrow books relied on new material (e.g. At Terror Street and Agony Way), but generally speaking, the Bukowski that most of the world knows all came down to Martin.

As you probably know, Bukowski didn't consider it his job to edit, but rather to pump out as much work as he could, and leave the editing to others. Webb and Malone had a good feel for what was his strongest work, and Martin was of course more intimately involved with Bukowski's work than Bukowski himself may have been.

As for those British mix-ups of all the posthumous works, that just seems like sloppy editing. Martin always went with identifiable eras in the sections, with most of the later books split into three distinct sections. To add confusion to that though, there were often later poems in the earlier sections. As Bukowski got older he wrote more nostalgic poems about his early days, and those would end up in the sections of early works.

So...what? I don't even really know what I just said. Ha. I'm sure there was a point in there somewhere. That being that Martin did care about how the work was presented, and he did care about quality. Which is (I believe) why he never collected most of the stories in Erections... or Notes of a Dirty Old Man. He didn't think they were good enough.

 

[mjp]

I would loathe having access only to someone else's judgment about what's worthy to read. I wouldn't want just the popular stuff, I'd want the whole enchilada.

Agreed. That's why the manuscripts are available on this site, and why our benefactor cirerita is slowly supplying us with lots of lesser known, uncollected works. There should be a place where all of this is available, and we're building it.

His letters were explosive fountains of unbridled & uncensored expressions from his fiery heart and troubled mind. Written like he had nothing to lose and no one to offend, his letters were tits, Jack.

Agree with that too, 100%

 

[grahamcooke]

As for those British mix-ups of all the posthumous works, that just seems like sloppy editing.

Indeed. Also money-making. I bought book 1 and 3 in the airport on a trip to India (Bukowski wouldn't have been interested). Book 1 contains some of Sifting Through. Presumably, book 2 contains the rest, as the book is split into two sections, not four. Book 3 is split into four sections, and might be a full copy of Flash of Lightning.

The worst thing, however, is the way they are printed. Virgin, the publishers, have compressed the books to 150-odd pages, so if a poem finishes half way down a page, the next poem begins two lines after that. It's like an endless list. I don't know why, but I feel a poem should always have it's own pages, and start at the top. Cramming them all together isn't good, poems need space.

Incidentally, both books are edited by John Martin, so they're probably just splitting the US versions up rather than shuffling the contents. Two books, after all, will make more money than one.

 

[HenryChinaski]

Wow, that's surprising that Martin edited those. Your best bet is to just purchase all the US editions of the books. I'm sure reading the UK/Ireland publications and then the US are two totally different experiences. I could never see myself reading a UK edition just because they seem so different from what I'm used to.

As far as the most powerful posthumous edition of work, I think Betting On The Muse takes the cake. Although the poem to short story ratio could've been balanced a little better, it's still my favorite. Also, What Matters Most is a very strong effort.

As far as questioning the content of the posthumous editions, it's Bukowski, through and through. There is no getting around that either way you look at it. And the transitions he made in his writing throughout his life are very evident as is with any writer.

Bukowski is Bukowski, he took the good with the bad and didn't complain.
I suggest you do the same.

 

[grahamcooke]

As far as the most powerful posthumous edition of work, I think Betting On The Muse takes the cake... Also, What Matters Most is a very strong effort...

I agree. I love his later work, Septuagenarian Stew is probably my favourite collection. But that might be because it was the first Bukowski I read...

Bukowski is Bukowski, he took the good with the bad and didn't complain. I suggest you do the same.

Oh I'm not complaining. I've ordered the books already, just wanted to throw the topic out there for discussion. Great site, incidentally, I'm glad I found this forum.

 

[hank solo]

generally speaking, the Bukowski that most of the world knows all came down to Martin.

Thats very true. Bukowski seems to have been very happy with the arrangement with Martin, and the freedom it gave him with regard to shooting out works without being overly concerned with editing them for collection. On the whole I have to say Martin has put together some fine very collections. Of course its been noted elsewhere that he had duplicated some poems in collections.. but we can forgive him this surely based on the masses of paper he must have handled with Bukowskis signature on them.

...(I believe) why he never collected most of the stories in Erections... or Notes of a Dirty Old Man. He didn't think they were good enough.

I wondered if Erections and Notes came out from City Lights (and Essex House) due to some sort of deal with the open city / free press papers that meant that Black Sparrow couldn't collect them? My Bukowski history isn't as polished on this as I'd like... Was City Lights founder Lawrence Ferlinghetti involved with those 60s rags at all? I have loved many of those crazy tales.

And finally, regarding the quality of the early works, and Martins opinion - don't forget how Martin tells the story of his discovering Bukowskis early works and then collecting everything he could find and then how excited he was by the piles of paper at Bukowskis old court when he first visited him... he was blown away - so he must have been fairly impressed with the quality? From what I've read/heard he doesn't seem like a betting man yet he decided it was worth a $100 a month ;)

 

[dav]

i believe that the posthumous books contain work that spans the career of bukowski. buk would mark poems which he thought were special and they would be specifically saved for publication after his death. so these books should hold some of his best work, and after just now finishing "flash of lightning", i have to say it's my overall favorite book of poetry (if i had to pick one).

 

[mjp]

I wondered if Erections and Notes came out from City Lights (and Essex House) due to some sort of deal with the open city / free press papers that meant that Black Sparrow couldn't collect them?

That may well be, but I've read a couple of different times that Martin didn't care for Bukowski's columns in the Los Angeles "Hippy papers," Open City and LA Free Press. Maybe Martin considered that work subpar because he couldn't have it. ;)

he was blown away - so he must have been fairly impressed with the quality? From what I've read/heard he doesn't seem like a betting man yet he decided it was worth a $100 a month.

Remember that the $100 a month was still not a lot of money, and Bukowski pointed out in a letter to Martin (that cirerita posted in the "uncollected" forum) that he paid his flunky office staff more than he paid Bukowski.

 

[grahamcooke]

I'm halfway through "Sifting Through The Madness" at the moment, loving it, but trying not to consume too much too quickly and be left with a closed book but no more to read. Do you (all) think Buk got more positive in his later years?

I take it ecco are publishing these five books of poetry. Then... no more?

 

[mjp]

The press release they put out when they acquired the Bukowski/Fante/Bowles rights from Martin said five books, so the next one should be the last. If they follow their previous release schedule it will be out in January.

http://www.harpercollins.com/press/display.asp?ACT=showid&ID=36

 

[Erik]

Do you (all) think Buk got more positive in his later years?

Look at it this way: to be so negative, disgusted/disappointed with ppl & society you've gotta have a lot of positive expectations to life.
Buk wasn't negative - the world was/is! Get it? He was just showing it as it is.

The ppl who don't give a flying fuck are the negative ones, like glad ass cheery sitcoms or tv-commercials...

I guess most of us are just worn numb by drudgery, routine and lack of imagination. That's why we need poets to wake us up every now and then.
Seems to me that good authors are strong ppl, in a way, and they haven't been worn down and thinned out yet.

On growing mellow: I've read that men's hormone balance changes after 60/70 (honest!). So most men mellow with age biologically!
Heard an interview with Leonard Cohen once were he described how his demons just left him at a certain age...

What do ya say you members over 60? ;)

 

[cirerita]

Neil Young has just turned 60 and next month or so he'll release an album titled "Living With War". One of the songs is titled "Impeach the President" and it's a "brilliant electric assault" according to J. Demme. Young himself describes the album as "Metal Folk Music." We'll see, but it seems he has a few demons left inside :D

 

[Erik]

I doubt if the new album will be another Tonight's the Night though...:)

 

[cirerita]

that's impossible. there's only one TTN... a milestone impossible to repeat.
I expect the new album to sound like Freedom...

 

[MarkDB]

I think the more positive vibes in a lot of Bukowski's later work have simply to do with having a lot more money and therefore a more comfortable life. I experience glee reading about his own good feelings when he gets into the Beemer, turns the key, listens to the perfect hum of the ultimate driving machine, and heads on down the highway to the track, spends the day doing what he loves most, betting on and watching his horses, tipping the valet as he tools away again in the Beemer and heads to his comfortable home to spend an evening by the pool with a great bottle of wine, a partner who takes care of him and Mahler on the radio. Poverty breeds anger and it's nice as hell to see people break the cycle of poverty without having to compromise for the man.

 

[zoom man]

it's nice as hell to see people break the cycle of poverty without having to compromise for the man.

AMEN

 

[David Dunne]

I am the proud owner of a 1994 Toyota Corolla 2 litre diesel, which I've been using as a taxi for the last 10 happy years. Because of this wonderful piece of Japanese engineering, I can understand Hank's love for his Volkswagen Beetle. I would'nt swap my Corolla for all the Beemers in India. "I ROARED LIKE A MADMAN".....