The Slapping Scene (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter bongobill
- Start date
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
I think that Linda or Buk mentioned this at a later time.
I'm sure that one or two of our members will remember the exact quote.
Bill
I'm sure that one or two of our members will remember the exact quote.
Bill
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
HI,
Also, remember that Linda Bukowski was rumored to have had the final say for the released video. By that, I mean that she had parts that she did not want in there. I heard that the director removed those parts. This was apparently not one of them. Apparently it did not bother her after the fact.
Best,
Bill
Also, remember that Linda Bukowski was rumored to have had the final say for the released video. By that, I mean that she had parts that she did not want in there. I heard that the director removed those parts. This was apparently not one of them. Apparently it did not bother her after the fact.
Best,
Bill
reasonknot
Founding member
wasn't buk so drunk that he had no recollection of that incident?
i forgot where i read that.i was shocked too when i first saw that.
drinks do pull things out though.and how!
i forgot where i read that.i was shocked too when i first saw that.
drinks do pull things out though.and how!
buk was a human and he was not afraid to show it.
On top of that, you have to consider his background,the kind of woman he HAD TO settle for in his earlier years(well,until he was 50 i guess).
I think linda was able to think that way.
..one should also waste a thought or 2 to the fact that AFTER his success, all kinds of woman came flying to him..
On top of that, you have to consider his background,the kind of woman he HAD TO settle for in his earlier years(well,until he was 50 i guess).
I think linda was able to think that way.
..one should also waste a thought or 2 to the fact that AFTER his success, all kinds of woman came flying to him..
cirerita
Founding member
that scene is becoming a classic in the B mythology. Schroeder said he left the camera running because B didn't tell him otherwise, but he said he felt quite nervous and didn't quite know how to handle the situation -as the director, that is.
the scene was later re-used in both The Ordinary Madness of CB and BIT, and probably elsewhere.
Linda stated that was the only time B treated her that way. I suspect that's not entirely true, though. Just a suspicion, no facts to prove it, but during that period -during the shooting of The CB Tapes- they were living apart most of the time and B was VERY insecure emotionally, as reflected in many unpublished letters. I have this feeling he could have been extremely violent -maybe not phisically, though. This scene is a good picture of where they were at during those years. Sad, but true.
the scene was later re-used in both The Ordinary Madness of CB and BIT, and probably elsewhere.
Linda stated that was the only time B treated her that way. I suspect that's not entirely true, though. Just a suspicion, no facts to prove it, but during that period -during the shooting of The CB Tapes- they were living apart most of the time and B was VERY insecure emotionally, as reflected in many unpublished letters. I have this feeling he could have been extremely violent -maybe not phisically, though. This scene is a good picture of where they were at during those years. Sad, but true.
wow. considering some of the crazy shit he says in the video, as well as that scene with linda, it's hard to imagine what she didn't want included in it and why not. any idea?
HenryChinaski
Founding member
lol that was a great scene. WITH A JEWISH ATTOURNEY.
I recall reading or hearing somewhere that Schroeder asked them if they both wanted the scene cut out on the original release of the tapes. "Oh no," they said, "that was the best part!"?or words to that effect. However, for the DVD release, Linda evidently felt differently and didn't want it included; but Dullaghan choose to include it because he felt it was characteristic of Bukowski's temperament, and this type of a situation had undoubtedly played out many times in B's life. I think he made the right artistic decision to keep it in. (If I'd known him, I think Bukowski might have kicked me off the couch too, after 5 or 6 bottles of wine.)
Linda later said that the humiliation of this never happened again. She wisened up, became stronger and would go upstairs while he ranted downstairs?"Whatever you say, papa!" They had worked it through on both sides, married in '85, and lived happily ever after like Beauty and the Beast, with ne'er so much as another difference of opinion, heated argument, or single hair of grass out of place. ;-)
pt
Linda later said that the humiliation of this never happened again. She wisened up, became stronger and would go upstairs while he ranted downstairs?"Whatever you say, papa!" They had worked it through on both sides, married in '85, and lived happily ever after like Beauty and the Beast, with ne'er so much as another difference of opinion, heated argument, or single hair of grass out of place. ;-)
pt
I think it's great the "slapping" scene was included in Schroeder's final cut, because I do think there is an element of violence in BUK that sometimes is pushed aside or "overlooked". Case in point, Linda King. It seems by all accounts those two could really get to each other, and I think she could be just as cruel and manipulative as him. However, what do you do with the fact that he hauled off and broke her nose? I think if Linda Bukowski was given the option to have the scene cut, it was quite smart of her to leave it in. It confronts the viewer with another aspect of BUK that they might like or hate, but which they have to confront at some point if they want to know more about the man behind the books.
careful...
Whoops...I wasn't trying to break any glass houses....:D
I didn't like the 'slapping scene' one bit. It made me feel nauseated. (I was raised in horrific domestic violence).
Only the very naive or ignorant would be unaware of the violence inherent in entrenched alcoholism. I certainly knew it was there, I didn't have to see it!.
The producers may have been trying to show a 'range' of emotions. I thought it was a bit of a dud...an alcoholic can feel hundreds of disparate emotions in one day!.
Only the very naive or ignorant would be unaware of the violence inherent in entrenched alcoholism. I certainly knew it was there, I didn't have to see it!.
The producers may have been trying to show a 'range' of emotions. I thought it was a bit of a dud...an alcoholic can feel hundreds of disparate emotions in one day!.
it happens
men hit women. weak men, that are powerless to take out their anger against other men. women hit men. they become uncontrollable and think they can claw or scratch or slap. a man doesn't need to hit a woman; take her breathing and watch the change in her attitude. people are horrible to each other. that is the nature of things. some folks feel as if being married gives you someone to fight with, and it fills some lacking in their being. it's not right, it just is. i love my wife and we get along, i'm not violent with her and try not to be with others. but many are. nature dictates it. i've recently seen a commercial where folks do the right thing and others witness it and pass it along. it brings tears. life affirmation does that to me but i'm still interested in the hard side, the darker side. aren't we all, in some way?
men hit women. weak men, that are powerless to take out their anger against other men. women hit men. they become uncontrollable and think they can claw or scratch or slap. a man doesn't need to hit a woman; take her breathing and watch the change in her attitude. people are horrible to each other. that is the nature of things. some folks feel as if being married gives you someone to fight with, and it fills some lacking in their being. it's not right, it just is. i love my wife and we get along, i'm not violent with her and try not to be with others. but many are. nature dictates it. i've recently seen a commercial where folks do the right thing and others witness it and pass it along. it brings tears. life affirmation does that to me but i'm still interested in the hard side, the darker side. aren't we all, in some way?
But c'mon, there's a difference between seeing it happen and hearing or reading about it. Watching someone get torn in two by a tank round is certainly more disturbing than just being told that it happened.
have you people who are "shocked" ever read any of this mans work? maybe you should be reading a safer writer... or watching capote.
ok i just read ALL the responses and all i have to say is that some of you are weak in the worst way... you will invite violence against women into your homes if it is in word, but in seeing it you are sickened...
you are the kind of people who dont want to know where their food comes from but would love a meal of fois gras without even thinking.
i ask you all to reconsider your black and white veiw of life.
you are the kind of people who dont want to know where their food comes from but would love a meal of fois gras without even thinking.
i ask you all to reconsider your black and white veiw of life.
i dont think im special at all for not sticking my head in the sand on this... and im not trying to hurt any feelings... but damn, a scene like that is a part of bukowskis reality...
cirerita
Founding member
you will invite violence against women into your homes if it is in word, but in seeing it you are sickened...
you are the kind of people who dont want to know where their food comes from but would love a meal of fois gras without even thinking.
So I read the bible and am amazed at the great flood, awed by the pestilence but if I recoil at some open blister on my mouth or at the site of a bloated cat on some New Orleans street I'm afraid of the black and white world.
One last point it, takes more intestinal fortitude to de vein fois gras than one would imagine but the results are worth the effort.
you are the kind of people who dont want to know where their food comes from but would love a meal of fois gras without even thinking.
So I read the bible and am amazed at the great flood, awed by the pestilence but if I recoil at some open blister on my mouth or at the site of a bloated cat on some New Orleans street I'm afraid of the black and white world.
One last point it, takes more intestinal fortitude to de vein fois gras than one would imagine but the results are worth the effort.
cirerite, point taken. i was speaking a bit too generally.
Jimmy, i hear ya... about the fois gras thing though... that shit is just plain gross! isn't it banned in chicago now too? if so, awesome.
anyway, we all agree beating women is terrible, so thats cool.
Jimmy, i hear ya... about the fois gras thing though... that shit is just plain gross! isn't it banned in chicago now too? if so, awesome.
anyway, we all agree beating women is terrible, so thats cool.
HenryChinaski
Founding member
why would you be shocked?
you get enough wine in you and you'll do damn near anything.
probably wont remember it in the morning either.
you get enough wine in you and you'll do damn near anything.
probably wont remember it in the morning either.
Truly surprising...not.
Let's please have another reality check here on this
uncomfortable little episode.
Linda was slightly slurring her speech...something I've never
heard her or any one admit to ... and appeared just as
smashed as Hank was... or even moreso, as he could at least
get his words out without her noticeable wow and flutter.
...Gee... a heated argument between two drunks... how so
very original and refreshing, lol. Upon repeated viewings
of this segment, I'd have to say that Linda wasn't exactly
at her best either, and not to excuse Hank's behavior, but they
both appeared to contribute equally to this entertaining but
unpleasant taunting incident. I bet they had at least one or two
bottles of wine each under their pelts before the fun
began... I mean, belts... and then the back-and-forth started,
each in their own rose-colored reality, as he felt inspired to
begin his game of kick-the-Meyer Baba disciple and tentative
girlfriend of the moment. (Drinking was a religion to him,
but I always wondered how she justified her boozing excesses on
spiritual grounds when it's considered a no-no by most teachers
of meditation and other spiritual practices... Perhaps the good
Lord reveals himself in mysterious ways.) In any event, I view
this as an instructive lesson for all the unrepentant guzzlers in
the world, both man and woman alike, starting from San Pedro
and extending to the Vatican, the seat of all unreality and evil
except for Washington D.C. Wow and flutter indeed. ;-)
"”Poptop.
Let's please have another reality check here on this
uncomfortable little episode.
Linda was slightly slurring her speech...something I've never
heard her or any one admit to ... and appeared just as
smashed as Hank was... or even moreso, as he could at least
get his words out without her noticeable wow and flutter.
...Gee... a heated argument between two drunks... how so
very original and refreshing, lol. Upon repeated viewings
of this segment, I'd have to say that Linda wasn't exactly
at her best either, and not to excuse Hank's behavior, but they
both appeared to contribute equally to this entertaining but
unpleasant taunting incident. I bet they had at least one or two
bottles of wine each under their pelts before the fun
began... I mean, belts... and then the back-and-forth started,
each in their own rose-colored reality, as he felt inspired to
begin his game of kick-the-Meyer Baba disciple and tentative
girlfriend of the moment. (Drinking was a religion to him,
but I always wondered how she justified her boozing excesses on
spiritual grounds when it's considered a no-no by most teachers
of meditation and other spiritual practices... Perhaps the good
Lord reveals himself in mysterious ways.) In any event, I view
this as an instructive lesson for all the unrepentant guzzlers in
the world, both man and woman alike, starting from San Pedro
and extending to the Vatican, the seat of all unreality and evil
except for Washington D.C. Wow and flutter indeed. ;-)
"”Poptop.
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the only good poet
One retreat after another without peace.
the scene DID and DID'NT have anything to do with alcohol: bukowski was insecure - he was a home-body and had this beautiful female 25yrs his junior, comfortable in her skin, christ! you can read a book but -
the only good poet
One retreat after another without peace.
i think i was on the "boards" a little too long last night.
i think it spelt volumes when b said words to the effect, "i live with a woman or she lives with me, she doesn't live with other people."
i think it spelt volumes when b said words to the effect, "i live with a woman or she lives with me, she doesn't live with other people."
Yeah, I got that too...seemed strange as I am reading through WOMEN now and Chinaski's attitude is "you can take my women, okay, but take my car and I might murder you."
So Hank is really the opposite of HANK sometimes...not really surprising. I guess we all want to be someone else sometimes, even if it is really only ourselves.
And why is anyone surprised about the slapping scene? I just watched the DVD with the speacial featurette...the slow motion replay of the scene right before Hank lashes out is truly insightful...check out the look that crosses his face the instant before. Anyone ever spending much time in such situations could just see it coming...that slow-mo I've seen before, many times.
So Hank is really the opposite of HANK sometimes...not really surprising. I guess we all want to be someone else sometimes, even if it is really only ourselves.
And why is anyone surprised about the slapping scene? I just watched the DVD with the speacial featurette...the slow motion replay of the scene right before Hank lashes out is truly insightful...check out the look that crosses his face the instant before. Anyone ever spending much time in such situations could just see it coming...that slow-mo I've seen before, many times.
There have been said a lot of true things on the matter already.
Still I would like to add to this by stressing, that we don't know the whole happening: When you watch it carefully you see, that even at the very start he seems to refer to something that musta been subject to discussion before the cam was rolling or the cutter decided to start. He is talking with looks towards her (e.g. right after he says "so they do it") and I'm pretty sure, what we see is not a "sudden" explosion of violence, but the result of a longer going argument. Also she is mocking at him, laughing about him, provoking. Yes, this doesn't excuse beatings, but still gives a totally different evaluation of the situation.
But nevertheless I'd prefer they dropped this episode - not to hide his 'dark side' or anything. But I know many people, not Bukowski-Fans, who I recommended to watch the Schroeder-Tapes to get a good glimpse about Buk for a start - and ALL of them (after watching it) refer to this episode FIRST!
It is like all the other 4 hours never existed! Nobody has ever tried to talk to me about his moving readings of "Tragedy of the leaves" or "For Jane" or when he talks about style and decency or when he's showing where he lived all his life - all come up with this scene! It spoils Bukowski. That's my point. It deflects from the main things. (only non-fans that is of course.)
Still I would like to add to this by stressing, that we don't know the whole happening: When you watch it carefully you see, that even at the very start he seems to refer to something that musta been subject to discussion before the cam was rolling or the cutter decided to start. He is talking with looks towards her (e.g. right after he says "so they do it") and I'm pretty sure, what we see is not a "sudden" explosion of violence, but the result of a longer going argument. Also she is mocking at him, laughing about him, provoking. Yes, this doesn't excuse beatings, but still gives a totally different evaluation of the situation.
But nevertheless I'd prefer they dropped this episode - not to hide his 'dark side' or anything. But I know many people, not Bukowski-Fans, who I recommended to watch the Schroeder-Tapes to get a good glimpse about Buk for a start - and ALL of them (after watching it) refer to this episode FIRST!
It is like all the other 4 hours never existed! Nobody has ever tried to talk to me about his moving readings of "Tragedy of the leaves" or "For Jane" or when he talks about style and decency or when he's showing where he lived all his life - all come up with this scene! It spoils Bukowski. That's my point. It deflects from the main things. (only non-fans that is of course.)
mjp
Founding member
I think in general it's the more sensational aspects of Bukowski that a lot of people first latch on to. If they hang in there long enough they can pick up the nuances and soul, but on the surface, a lot of people only see a drunk womanizer.
Of course that is the image that he (and to a lesser extent, his publishers) played up during his lifetime, so it isn't surprising that a lot of people come to his work knowing only the broad strokes of his personality or life.
Of course that is the image that he (and to a lesser extent, his publishers) played up during his lifetime, so it isn't surprising that a lot of people come to his work knowing only the broad strokes of his personality or life.
HenryChinaski
Founding member
i for one, am glad they kept it in there. you have to take the good with the bad.
IT DOESNT SPOIL A GODDAMN THING. people either love him or hate him. there is no in-between.
DO YOU THINK HE GAVE A FUCK WHAT PEOPLE THOUGHT OF HIM?
well yes to a certain extent...but I wont be the first to say that Bukowski lived by his own philosophy.
"your life is your life. know it well..."
Instant Replay
And how does anyone know that the same force of passion that led Bukowski to kick Linda so brutally off the sofa isn't the same force of passion harnessed behind his poems? I believe it is, and this is why that scene deserves to be left in.
I also feel that his rage has everything to do with the repeated, brutal beatings he suffered under his sadistic father. That naked force of rage is revealed in this shocking kicking episode, and it's important that viewers see that naked force unglamorized.
If Bukowski and Linda got over it, the viewers should be able to likewise. Those who see only the brutality of this episode and nothing else in the entire 4 hours, are probably the ones who will never deal with their own rage, sock their wives in the kisser and never draw a connection between the two.
That same force of rage can also heighten the love between a man and a woman if it's transformed. It was. They got through it. They married. Their love ended on a high note, not in spite of this incident, but probably because of it. It made her stronger, and him more aware of his irrational anger.
I'm glad the scene was left in, and if other's cannot understand it within the context of his triumphant life as a whole"”that's their problem, because a lot of people can. At the end of his life, what you see is a man who treated his wife with love, respect and deference. He found out that not all women are whores.
"”Poptop.
And how does anyone know that the same force of passion that led Bukowski to kick Linda so brutally off the sofa isn't the same force of passion harnessed behind his poems? I believe it is, and this is why that scene deserves to be left in.
I also feel that his rage has everything to do with the repeated, brutal beatings he suffered under his sadistic father. That naked force of rage is revealed in this shocking kicking episode, and it's important that viewers see that naked force unglamorized.
If Bukowski and Linda got over it, the viewers should be able to likewise. Those who see only the brutality of this episode and nothing else in the entire 4 hours, are probably the ones who will never deal with their own rage, sock their wives in the kisser and never draw a connection between the two.
That same force of rage can also heighten the love between a man and a woman if it's transformed. It was. They got through it. They married. Their love ended on a high note, not in spite of this incident, but probably because of it. It made her stronger, and him more aware of his irrational anger.
I'm glad the scene was left in, and if other's cannot understand it within the context of his triumphant life as a whole"”that's their problem, because a lot of people can. At the end of his life, what you see is a man who treated his wife with love, respect and deference. He found out that not all women are whores.
"”Poptop.
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the only good poet
One retreat after another without peace.
just so. "Confession," from EARTH POEMS, is tremedously touching, sad, with just a hint of irony - "it's not my death that bothers me/it's my wife..."
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