If I may (?) (1 Viewer)

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ROC

ROC

It is what it is
I've thought long and hard about posting this...
I do so because I respect some of the minds who post on this site and I would be very interested to hear what you make of it all.

I would like to ask anyone who is interested to watch all eleven 'episodes' of this...


...and say what they think.

Without clicking on the link - it relates to inconsistencies in the official story of 9/11.
It's well over an hour of viewing all up, so some effort and patience is required.
I don't want this to turn into a bung-fight, and if mjp feels it's best to 'pull' this post, I'm OK with that too. I'm merely interested to hear what some of you guys think... particularly those who live in the states.

best,

ROC
 
Having lived, traveled, and broken bread with , conspiracy
theories get my blood racing just a little bit, like a Highlander anticipating the quickening.

I'll watch it, and thank you in advance for the links, but I probably won't comment. After
having been among the most blood thirsty, savage, political and nefarious office
in-fighting (remember I was once part of the Church), public debates seem so... .

Thanks for the links.
Truly.
 
No problem and you're welcome Father Luke.
But, if you do watch them all... maybe you will feel inclined to comment.

We'll see.

And thanks for the benefit of the doubt, mjp.
 
I have watched a couple of these. I have also seen many documentaries about this issue. At the end of the day, we will never realy know (not in our lifetimes at least) what the truth is. Is Al Quieda a branch of the CIA? Did Clinto really set this up for Bush to go to war with Iraq? Are Tony Blair and George Bush cousins? Is a smoking building liable to collapse in 50 minutes? Was there really a flight 97? Does my anus itch due to lack of vitamin D?
Personally, what do I think? I think that if these conspiracy theories are true, it is a sad and sick way to say 'thanks for voting me in' to the friends and relatives of the dead, and to the troops and their relatives.
If it's not true, and Al-Quieda are a real indipendant rebel fighting force and are 100% responsible, then these stories are raking in wads of cash which should be used to set up a fund for the victims families, that includes the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan etc.

One thing that does surprise me is that with all the interrigence in the world, you cannot stop someone doing something they really want to do. If a small group of guys wanted to blow something up, they will. Especially if it involves them blowing themselves up in the process. Explosives can be made from household items and any fool with enough nouse can concoct them if they wished. Do I live in fear of another 'terrorist attack'? Certainly not the kind they want you to believe is coming.

Like I said, we may never know.
 
I've seen a lot of it Onions, and find it all very hard to watch. I lived in New York City (Brooklyn) at the time of these events, and it's left a terrible feeling with me ever since. We lost no one, or knew any of the victims personally, but it's left it's mark on both my wife and I. I had just gotten home from work that morning (I worked the over night shift at a city hospital) when my wife called me into the bedroom to see what was happening. The Hospital called me shortly afterward to say that I was on standby, and may need to be called in the event of major casualties.

My wife would not let me out of the house until later that day, when I walked down to the Promenade to look over at the mess. There are many aspects of the whole business that bother me greatly. It seems that many accept the popular explanation and are comfortable with it. I do not and find it still very chilling and bizarre.

I don't really know what to think of it. Still
 
I've seen a couple of the Alex Jones documentaries and he always seemed to fit the stereotype of the wacky conspiracy theorist, making his theories, while interesting, a bit hard to swallow. This is presented well and in a calmer and more methodical way and is much more convincing.

I've believed for some time that the administration "stood-down" when the WTC was attacked (everything points to at least that) in order to have public leverage to promote their agenda, but I never really believed that the US may have planned and executed the attacks themselves. I no longer find that so hard to swallow. I think that it's at least possible that this is a hybrid situation where the administration stood-down when they were aware of the planned attack and then finished the job themselves. I've come to believe that the government of the US, and particularly this administration, is capable of anything. One problem I've always had with this sort of theory is a feeling that basic human decency would cause at least some of the people involved to come forward and admit their part in the crime, but if nobody is listening, and if "human decency" is a myth...

The theft of the presidency in 2000 should have tipped the people of this country off to just how corrupt our system has become, but the media (with very few exceptions), being a major part of that theft, didn't report on it at all except to ridicule those who raised questions about the process that put Bush in office. Since then, the administration has tested the American public by committing greater and more brazen crimes against the constitution to see what they could get away with. The bad news is that they get away with pretty much all of it and with little mention in the media. When an ugly story does arise they change the subject and show you Janet Jackson's tit, Brittney Spears' pussy or OJ Simpson's latest crime. Unfortunately much of the public willingly falls right into this trap, preferring spectacle over information.

In the past few years it's become obvious how the corporate controlled media (which sounds like a cliché, but is the most accurate description that I can think of), when they give them any attention at all, marginalize people with viewpoints that differ from the "accepted truth" (aka the party line). Dennis Kucinich is a good example, as are Bernie Sanders and John Conyers. Every time a valid point that goes against administration ideology is brought up it's labeled as "playing-politics" or "supporting the terrorists" and dismissed. If it weren't for the internet and access to foreign news publications, where would Americans get any real news in this part of the 21st century (other than dribs and drabs that make it into the NY Times and a few other papers, which not many people read anymore anyway)?

Through cynical manipulation by the government and its media channels and a lack of critical thinking (something which is not emphasized in US schools BTW) in this country the American public has given away their constitution, their liberties, and their country to a few banks and corporations. Any solution would involve the people taking back control of the the airwaves (which are in fact owned by the public), doing away with the current stupid electoral system, revoking corporate "personhood," eliminating the Federal Reserve (and by the way, did you know that most of your income tax goes to pay interest to the Federal Reserve, which is a privately owned central bank? See for a very good history of the Fed), a reinstatement of the draft in the form of required military or public service (not to serve the government, but to serve the people... anybody remember civics?), and a complete overhaul of the public school system in the US. An intelligent and informed public can make its own decisions, thank you.

Are the American people too fat, lazy and complacent to make these changes? Yeah, probably.
 
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chronic said:
The theft of the presidency in 2000 should have tipped the people of this country off to just how corrupt our system has become,
Click to expand...

I love that line.

To bogthing, I can't imagine what it must have been like, or must still be like to live through something like that, added to it the conspiracies etc it's bad enough watching from a great distance.

Chronic, the internet has ben a kind of saviour in all this. While on the one side, the media in general have the power to drill any kind of bullshit into peoples heads, anyone with any nouse about them will try to find other sides to every story. Here in the UK all you read about is bad news, stuff that is going to make your day grey and dreary. They subliminaly fill your eyes with brainwashing headlines and lead to to think a certain way. I've actually seen this happen with people. You may have heard the story that is continuously running over here about the girl who went missing in Portugal in May. One day people will say they believe she was abducted by a paedophile, and they will believe this for as long as the press alows them to. Then, they will change their story and accuse the parents of her murder and the public will then condemn the parents , as instructed subliminally by the press. Rather than looking at all the facts available (which is a quite a bit if you can be bothered to look into it) then draw your own conclusions.

Anyway, going lightly off topic there:p, was Alex Jones the guy who did the 'Loose Change' movies?
 
I've treaded into political discussions on this forum before, always with regret.
This post; evidence of a new found wisdom
 
Onions said:
You may have heard the story that is continuously running over here about the girl who went missing in Portugal in May. One day people will say they believe she was abducted by a paedophile, and they will believe this for as long as the press alows them to. Then, they will change their story and accuse the parents of her murder and the public will then condemn the parents , as instructed subliminally by the press.
Click to expand...

Yep, I've heard about that here lately. In the US, on CNN, we have this hideous, slug-like creature called Nancy Grace and this kind of stuff is her bread and butter. She tracks down all of the sad cases of missing children and abused spouses and turns them into pocket-change for herself and her employers, all the while with a look of concerned horror on her face that such horrible people exist. IMO she's right up there with the worst of them. Child murder and abuse as entertainment... excuse me while I vomit.
 
Delusions of grandeur

The only problem with this video, of course, is that it is a made for profit event. It was
designed to sell, . And, in the words of its
creator, has sold tidal waves.

Pick your favorite yellow journalism gossip rag.
Insert sensational headline, shake vigorously. Instant sales.
People want to dish the dirt. It's a great way to pass the time.

That goes beyond any conspiracy to the heart of that video. I believe.

The woman whose voice you hear, lulling, and calmly speaking through out the
event, lied. She has admitted she's lied. In so doing, she has done any true
investigation a disservice. All in the name of a few bucks. She is scum. Fuck her. Hard.

Her, and the fear-mongering, profit oriented, quick-buck, con artists of her ilk,
deserve no attention. Not from me. Except for discrediting them wherever I
find them.
 
Father Luke said:
Her, and the fear-mongering, profit oriented, quick-buck, con artists of her ilk,
deserve no attention. Not from me. Except for discrediting them wherever I
find them.
Click to expand...

Well put,
and,
ideally,
the final word...
the end of this shit
 
The biggest problem I have with the conspiracy theory is the deliberate professional demolition of the towers. If the administration is evil enough to kill 3,000 people in order to instigate a war, why take so much care in making sure the building falls straight down. Seriously, what's a few hundred more dead? As so many have pointed out, it would have appeared much more realistic anyway, had the towers toppled to one side. The administration is brilliant enough to wire an entire building to expode without being detected, but doesn't realize that there are demolition experts all over the world to whom such an act would be obvious. I have never heard of someone being so smart yet so stupid at the same time.
 
Father Luke said:
The only problem with this video, of course, is that it is a made for profit event. It was
designed to sell, . And, in the words of its
creator, has sold tidal waves.

Pick your favorite yellow journalism gossip rag.
Insert sensational headline, shake vigorously. Instant sales.
People want to dish the dirt. It's a great way to pass the time.

That goes beyond any conspiracy to the heart of that video. I believe.

The woman whose voice you hear, lulling, and calmly speaking through out the
event, lied. She has admitted she's lied. In so doing, she has done any true
investigation a disservice. All in the name of a few bucks. She is scum. Fuck her. Hard.

Her, and the fear-mongering, profit oriented, quick-buck, con artists of her ilk,
deserve no attention. Not from me. Except for discrediting them wherever I
find them.
Click to expand...

For someone who was not likely to post, you sure caved in to the temptation and posted with the kind of vitriolic hyperbole I was sincerely wishing to avoid here.
We're big boys, huh.
We can discuss this without resorting to "fucking" anyone "hard" surely?

I listened to that link you provided and can't say that I heard her "admit to lying".

And dolittle2x, it annoys you, this discussing of things 9/11?
Why?
 
Whew.

Okay.

Three things:
Number one
You wrote:
"No problem and you're welcome Father Luke.
But, if you do watch them all... maybe you will feel inclined to comment.

We'll see."

Hey, man. I never go where I'm not invited.
Translation anyone?

(you asked for it)

Number two:
Fuck seemed so much stronger a word than fornicate.
What would be appropriate wordage when discussing a woman
making money on sensationalizing deaths of my neighbors?
Substitute that in it's stead, and I will be happy.

Number three:

dolittle2x never wrote that discussing 911 things was annoying.

What doolittle2x wrote was:

Well put,
and,
ideally,
the final word...
the end of this shit

And to that I say here, here.
 
It seems that you find all this so distressing that you don't want others to talk about it.
That's seems strange to me.
If you don't wish to discuss it (FL and dolittle), don't discuss it. Don't contribute to this thread and don't let it trouble you. But why do we need an 'end of this shit'?
As if discussing it were a bad thing in itself.

Yes you were 'invited' to comment FL, but I also mentioned a desire not to turn this into a bung fight.
So, I asked for what?
And I'm not to infer from doliitle2x words...
Well put,
and,
ideally,
the final word...
the end of this shit
...that he is annoyed at the prospect of discussing this topic?
No, he never wrote the word annoying, but your nit picking seems more than a little petty there.

Oh well.
So, in the interest of maintaining civility on this forum maybe mjp (in the words of Larry Silverstein) should pull it?

Consider it a failed experiment.
 
How about those Dodgers!

Anyway, if history teaches us anything (and that is debatable) it is that you can't discuss politics or religion without twisting a lot of knickers, as the (British) kids say. And at the end of the day it is unlikely that anyone will say, "I see what you mean, maybe you're right," whichever side you're on.
 
I see what you mean, maybe you're right.



;)


Sorry for the twisted knickers.


Now...


Which is the one true faith?

A prize of nuclear weapons goes to the correct respondent.
 
I don't matter, but maybe the world and the people do, and I for one am thoroughly convinced that thee offical account of 9/11 - is horribly insufficient, and that there are indeed, powerful political forces that shaped this event: whether Globalists, Elite Social Egineers, or Secret Services: this event is not a KOSHER as the official account suggests.

Have you ever watched the William Rodriquez lecture? He was the janitor in one of the trade tower buildings for 20 years, he recounts his experience on the day, his actiosn, his survivial, and most importantly tha fact that he and several other workers were invovled in explosions in the basement on 9/11 before any of the planes hit.

Interesting story....you should watch it if you have spare time.

Here is the link: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-276277230182836708&q=William+Rodriquez

'Corruption and Conspiracy - are in fact: the only interesting aspects of politics! the extent to which they are a central feature in any given politics, yet the least focused on, is overwhelming' - Olaf

:D

Truth and Honesty - are prison sentences!
 
Come on!!!!!!!!

.
tha fact that he and several other workers were invovled in explosions in the basement on 9/11 before any of the planes hit.


So how the F do they know what happened if they are in the basement?
Did they run outside check for planes-no planes-then return to the basement?

Crikey I like black helicopters as much as the next guy but this stuff is beyond all logic...Is Bin Laden bragging about the act part of the conspiracy?

What if the planes missed? Those explosions would look pretty stupid.... even from the basement.

And what a great plan, get Sauidi nationals to live in Germany send emails back and forth then get on planes then crash into the pentagon strange how that conspiracy element is always missed. The Pentagon was hit. Get it.
Wheres a grassy knoll when you need one


So much for wisdom....
 
I won't say that I know all that happened.

But I know for sure the plan was foisted here in this forum.

By folks I won't devulge for my own safety.
 
I don't know about who or what did it, I was a kid when Kennedy was shot, and look how that continues to be bandied about. I guess what bothers me most is what occurred afterward, the whole fear campaign(s) that have been capitalized on. "Homeland Security" the Patriot Act, the collapse of critical mainstream journalism and press.

The way that nearly every day, black clad commandos in black Chevy Suburbans arrive at the scene to posture aggressively, and ham it up for the thousands of tourists that continue to arrive at the site. The way the city, state and country continue to lord over the site like ghouls over a corpse, refusing to properly memorialize the dead years afterward.


The way that every wednesday, police cars from every precinct in the city form a shreiking massive parade that converges on the site, as if to convey that they are "on the job".

The way that Giuliani maintains he saved the city and was on scene immediately, but many others remember his not arriving until 1:00pm or so...

Ah...
 
Jimmy Snerp said:
So how the F do they know what happened if they are in the basement?
Did they run outside check for planes-no planes-then return to the basement?
Click to expand...

They reported explosions in the basement they were in. Some people died and others were horribly injured. There was no need to run outside to check for planes as, according to the statement by Rodriquez, the plane hitting the tower he was in was noted as an explosion of a different kind - much further away.

Jimmy Snerp said:
Crikey I like black helicopters as much as the next guy but this stuff is beyond all logic...Is Bin Laden bragging about the act part of the conspiracy?
Click to expand...

Have a look at what the authorities claim to be Bin Ladens confession tape and compare the person who appears with pictures of Bin Laden. For one thing the person confessing is seen writing and eating with his right hand. According to CIA files, Bin Laden is left handed.
Besides which, it's an entirely different face!

Jimmy Snerp said:
What if the planes missed? Those explosions would look pretty stupid.... even from the basement.
Click to expand...

I don't know what you mean by this but, to be fair, I don't think you do either.

Jimmy Snerp said:
And what a great plan, get Sauidi nationals to live in Germany send emails back and forth then get on planes then crash into the pentagon strange how that conspiracy element is always missed. The Pentagon was hit. Get it.
Wheres a grassy knoll when you need one
Click to expand...

No one (as far as I am aware) disputes that the Pentagon was hit.
What is in dispute is that the two massive engines from the aircraft were vaporised by the impact, explosion and subsequent fire. This has never occurred in the entire history of aviation. But it is claimed to have occurred in both this case and in Pennsylvania.

Grassy knolls or whatever analogy you like. You should at least try to think things through for yourself.
 
And this...

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Hermann Goering 1945

Remind you of anything?
 
ROC said:
Remind you of anything?
Click to expand...


And I bet you also believe we never landed on the moon.....
OK, whatever,....

What's you're newest (next) revelation?...

Actually,
You know what?,

Never mind,

I think the National Enquirer is still in publication.
I'll catch up there
On all the 'news' that's fit to print
 
Wow. Thank you zoom man for the personal attack and snide insults. It's good to see that a reasonable and civil discussion can take place here.

The Goering quote is a matter of historical record and his comments do remind me of the current US administrations approach. I am expressing a personal opinion. So what that has to do with the moon landing or 'revelations' is beyond me.
What I do notice is a desire to erect straw men with silly hats and then knock them down while laughing at their foolish attire.

I posted this mostly to see what the reaction would be from those in the USA.
On the balance of things, I would characterise that reaction as irrational fear.
Without discussing the issue or any of the facts you (zoom man) just react with hostility and small mindedness.

It's a shame you don't grant yourself the freedom your leaders so often boast about.

But at least we're getting into it now.

PS - I do believe that we landed on the moon - I can never figure out why there are no stars in those photos though :confused:
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/iangoddard/moon01.htm
 
ROC said:
Wow. Thank you zoom man for the personal attack and snide insults. It's good to see that a reasonable and civil discussion can take place here.
Click to expand...

Sarcasm.

ROC said:
The Goering quote is a matter of historical record and his comments do remind me of the current US administrations approach. I am expressing a personal opinion. So what that has to do with the moon landing or 'revelations' is beyond me.
Click to expand...

T h i m k

ROC said:
What I do notice is a desire to erect straw men with silly hats and then knock them down while laughing at their foolish attire.

I posted this mostly to see what the reaction would be from those in the USA.
Click to expand...

My experience is that you wanted opinions on a particular video.

ROC said:
On the balance of things, I would characterise that reaction as irrational fear.
Without discussing the issue
Click to expand...

The issue of 911 is a tender subject for Americans. Strike that. The
issuse of 911 is a tender subject for this American.

But that was not what was being presented for discussion. One particular
video was presented for discussion.

ROC said:
or any of the facts you (zoom man) just react with hostility and small mindedness.
Click to expand...

Fans of irony take note.

ROC said:
It's a shame you don't grant yourself the freedom your leaders so often boast about.

But at least we're getting into it now.

PS - I do believe that we landed on the moon - I can never figure out why there are no stars in those photos though :confused:
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/iangoddard/moon01.htm
Click to expand...

The moon shot was an awesome achievement.
 
2 cents at par

I posted this mostly to see what the reaction would be from those in the USA.
On the balance of things, I would characterise that reaction as irrational fear.
Without discussing the issue or any of the facts you (zoom man) just react with hostility and small mindedness.


So if we disagree, we are small minded-great defense-have you been to the University of Columbia too?

What is so ridiculous is the way you only pick and choose facts that support your theory.

Red Herring-Goering The quote while interesting is not proof of anything.

Here is a link I think you might enjoy http://memorial.fire-hero.com/
They have a few opinions on the theory too.
 
I don't have a theory Jimmy Snerp.
But I do have real suspicions about the official explanation of events.

And you didn't 'disagree' with anything.
I requested you watch the videos on Youtube and post comments.
I'm curious... did you watch the videos or did you already know how you felt about the whole issue?
And Jimmy Snerp, I would not use the word 'we' in regards small mindedness... I was referring specifically to you and zoom man.
The Goering quote was not 'proof' of anything - correct. It was never intended to be.
It relates to the Naomi Wolf article that chronic linked to. But you didn't read that either. Why bother when you already have all the info you need, right?

Yes Father Luke, sarcasm. Don't be scared. It wont hurt you.

Father Luke - you remind me of the Jewish lady who I called racist because of derogatory comments she made to me about Arabs. She claimed that it was impossible for her to be racist because she was a jew.
You are American so the 9/11 tragedy is a tender subject for you. So what... you get upset when others want to discuss it? I don't understand your position.
It strikes me as a particular kind of pretentiousness that writes "strike that" but does not strike that - instead leaving it in for what? Literary effect?

So far, very few have responded with comments on the videos in question. It just seems to easy to do what zoom and Jimmy Snerp have done.

What happened on that day was fucking awful.
I'm curious how some of you believe you have all the info you need to move on.

Oh, and what the hell is t h i m k ?
 
I did watch the video's I did read the thread I just won't drink your kool Aid.

And its not about aving information we need and move on what your presenting here isn't information it's fantasy-well constructed fantasy but still nonsense.
It stinks of Dim Sum logic.
Again I'm not American so I don't have that partriotic get upset button to the point of irrationality but I do respect logic and for lack of a better word "clear thinking".
If you want to discuss air quality after the towers fell then I think thats an important issue.
Show me proof not conjecture any proof that supports this tripe-and while you're at it give my regards to your friends at Roswell.

Perhaps this site is best for you Roc-http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18
There are more, many many more
 
"Oh, no! It wasn't the airplanes. It was Beauty killed the Beast."
- King Kong (1933)









Maybe now is a good time to stop, so we can avoid a bukowski.net jihad.
 
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