Mack Derouac (1 Viewer)

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TheBicycleTragedy - this thread has turned ugly. If you tuck tail and run then fuck you. I'd feel comfort in any room that had Kerouac and Bukowski sitting side by side on the shelf.
Nobody's running. I'm just reading these responses privately and marvelling to myself how goddamned closed-minded and uninformed these people are.

No he doesn't, it was Orwell I was thinking of.
Sorry,
Kerouac then, besides OTR,
sucks
Apparently so do your research skills; the book was called Satori in Paris, and it recounts his trip to France to research his Breton ancestry. He never lived there.

And why did you structure your response to yourself as though it were a Bukowski poem? Superfluous line breaks, I mean...in a Buk poem, great. In a forum thread entry? Kind of silly.
 
Down and Out in Paris and London.
ORWELL, George.

London, Victor Gollancz, 1933, 1933. First Edition, First Impression

TheBicycleTragedy said:
And why did you structure your response to yourself as though it were a Bukowski poem?
because I'm a member
of a certain
brah's
cult
 
bra cult? i'm more of a panty fetishist...

my 2 cents: kerouac was good at times. so was buk (though at a much higher %). so am i. orwell's "down and out in paris and london" is good too. really good. ELP and rush? not so much...
and i'll take east nashville coke over east LA crack anyday...
 
zoom man said:
Try pages 269 and 311 from Reach for the Sun
and
page 159 from Sifting through the Madness
and
page 278 from Love is a Dog from Hell
then
Last Night of the Earth Poems page 401.

BTW, I really dig Salinger too

Thanks for these references. Speaking of Salinger, have you read the uncollected stories bootleg anthology that is floating around online? I just found it recently but I'm sure this pdf has been around for some time. What are your thoughts on them? Here is the link just in case...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/okoniq
 
I'm a fan of Kerouac, I must admit, although I think LTS is definitely onto something when he mentions the lack of editorial control in a lot of his work. Personally I enjoyed 'On The Road', 'Big Sur', 'Pic' and 'The Dharma Bums' although I wasn't so keen on 'The Subterreans' which is pretty pretentious. And I only finished 'Wake Up' because it was so short. Even the stuff I enjoyed I found a bit corny though. It's inevitably dated because of the language used and at times it seems almost like a parody of beatnik culture from a modern viewpoint. At the same time I felt at other moments he touched upon some sort of deep cosmic truth (see, he's even got me doing it now) which is no mean feat.
 
Chuckling from on high, as it were. How original.

You tease, you.

Hey mjp, thanks for that link, it was quite interesting and I enjoyed reading it. As for my comment about people being closed-minded, I guess in retrospect it was a bit hasty and unnecessary. I should have better manners, being new here. And it was a blanket statement, not really thought out too well and then poof, there it was on the page. But, oh well. You know how poofs can be.

As for trolls, I once made up story about a little elf named Rottencunt. He looked like a garden gnome but was the parton saint of venereal diseases. Anyway, did you see that clip on YouTube of the alleged troll skipping across the road in Argentina? It was creepy.

As for originality, well, "there is nothing new under the sun," or so sayeth Ecclesiastes.

Let's see, am I leaving anything out...oh yeah, I just got back from an estate sale where I found the second Monkees LP on vinyl. They had Headquarters too, but somebody had already bought it, goddamnit.

I watched Interiors last night, which I thought I'd seen before but no, I hadn't.
 
Thanks for these references. Speaking of Salinger, have you read the uncollected stories bootleg anthology that is floating around online? I just found it recently but I'm sure this pdf has been around for some time. What are your thoughts on them? Here is the link just in case...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/okoniq

thanks for the link. I'm a Salinger fan (although I read Catcher too late, I was in my late 30s, but the other stuff really works for me). Kerouac, not so much. ;)
 
'The Catcher in the Rye' was always one of my all-time favourite books although I feel I may have grown out of it a bit. Being an old fart these days. I read 'Franny and Zooey' for the first time quite recently and I thought it was excellent.
 
Perhaps thats it.
Read OTR at 30 and anything else by JK after 30 and you're pretty much shrugging your shoulders saying OK I get it-but so what?-Reading Bukowski at any time and for me especially after 40 and I keep thinking why didn't I know you at 15-my life would be different.
Bukowski's work stays current for me-most likely cause he wrote or had a great deal published right up to his death (see timeline). I look back at Jack and say yeah thanks for the memories...AND GOD IS POOH BEAR
 
I read both Catcher and On The Road at 17 for the first time, back to back, and while I think my age definitely played a part in the way those works affected me, I'm not sure if it would be different now, at 33, since both books still hold great meaning for me, particularly Catcher.

I think that Catcher hits so many nails on so many heads that is is hard for it not to resonate into adulthood, provided you don't fall off the cliff, reach for the ring, etc etc...And even though my life has changed dramatically since being 17, that is all external. Inwardly I am exactly the same person, so maybe that's why I still love the book.

I think mainly, as Jimmy Snerp said, a lot of the Kerouac appreciation regards nostalgia for how you felt ORIGINALLY reading him, as a kid or a young adult.

I have only discovered Bukowski less than a year ago, and I think it's good that I found him now, at this age. It's like a whole world opening up. At 17, I'm not sure I would have gotten the work woes, the female woes that are rife in his writing...I'd have understood the contempt for people and the lack of enthusiasm for normal daily life, but I think everything else would have been over my head, then.

I recently read Queer, by Burroughs, who is a writer I've aways been aware of and interested in but only just now actually delved into. I thought Queer was very good, but lacking something...it has sensitivity and the narrative was pretty good but I don't know, he can't seem to NOT come across as a very cold, almost alien kind of person. But the self-loathing and unrequited desire that jumps out from every page is just profound; it definitely gave a new depth to way I looked at Burroughs who up til then I just thought was all cerebral and detached.

I know his other books are not all so straightforward and human...
 
don't get me wrong, I like Catcher, I just wish I read it 20+ years earlier.
 
I know his other books are not all so straightforward and human...

Maybe not, but "Junky" and "Interzone" are quite straight forward and both are good reads. I found "Queer" somewhat boring though.
 
Alas, I only know what's good for 15 year old girls. :p
 
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I'll defer to you on that one, as I assume you're an authority on what is good for 15 year old boys.
Thanks for taking the bait, sucker. You're making this too easy. It's like shooting pompous twats in a barrel.

---

As for 15 year old boys - maybe one day you'll have a son, then I'll let you know what's good for them.

I'll lure him here with skateboards and Cheetos and there won't be anything you can do about it. He'll be gone to the dark side, and every night you and your mail order bride will cry yourselves to sleep; "Where did we go wrong? Where did we go wrong?"

But don't worry yourself. You didn't go wrong. You just are wrong, and the boy will sense it. He will seek out something real and substantial, and that's when I will be there for him. It may take years to deprogram him after 15 years with the likes of you, but I'm confident it can be done.

Then I'll fuck your mail order bride.

For good measure.

We'll be like a happy family over here. Don't worry, I'll send you a Christmas card. Care of the Griffith YMCA, I assume?

Run along. You are dismissed.
 
Thanks for taking the bait, sucker. You're making this too easy. It's like shooting pompous twats in a barrel.

Sure, I took the bait, and I knew it was bait, because I've read enough of your posts to know you're too intelligent to have innocently and unknowingly left such an open-door comment.

If I hadn't taken the bait, I can assume you'd have left an equally snide remark in the opposite direction.

Look the point is, I know you run this show or at least have a heavy hand in it and obviously you are very intelligent and much more knowledgeable about Bukowski than me. I'd like to think I'm learning very quickly, given everything I've absorbed over the last ten or eleven months, but I'll defer to you, and in the meantime continue to enjoy picking up everything I can get by the guy because -and maybe this is all we have in common- I love his writing, which is, or should be, the only reason any of us are here.

YOU are the one who has gotten defensive, initiated insults, baited me, all that crap. Which is fine: it's the internet. But what joy do you get out of it? You're a mod here, so it's OK to be a troll since you sit in the control room?

Griffith doesn't have a YMCA. Gary does, and Hammond has two, but not Griffith.

Run along. You are dismissed.

But I like it here, can I stay? And do you have a vacancy for a back-scrubber?
 
He shouldn't have left the show, but that fuck shouldn't have thrown the bottle. So I don't know.
 
YOU are the one who has gotten defensive...
¿qué? I've just been cracking jokes. You must be thinking of another forum.

But I like it here, can I stay? And do you have a vacancy for a back-scrubber?
I'm old, but I can still reach my back. I could use a ball washer, though (you know...like in golf). But if you can handle the job - it's a big one - it's yours.
 
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The subject of being my ball washer may be stimulating to some. Maybe someone even wants the job, but now you are discouraging them, like some sort of naysayer or Negative Nelly!

There is no place for negativity on these discussion forums! I thought that was clear. If you want to talk shit, go to Literary Mary. I think they even have a forum called "Talk Shitty To Me." It's somewhere between the pog collecting and bicycle repair forums.
 
I think Bukowski saw Kerouac as competition, a threat to his market share, much as he apparently dismissed Ginsberg for the same reasons. I don't take it too seriously.

Nothing Bukowski could say about Jack would lessen my high opinion of Kerouac. Jack could write sloppy shit (as could Bukowski), but when he was on his game, he was great. Tristessa is a pure classic.

Tristessa, hell yeah! I'm also thinking Subterraneans, except for the big glaring prose spots that go windy-obscuro---or is that prose-poetry, I'm not sure? Somebody here mentioned Vanity Of Duluoz being a gem---I'll go with that and add, if I may with some reservation, Kerouac's The Scroll Version, if only for a gander at the actually unedited first sentence---and, if we're to take one of the writers of the intro, comparing it to a car engine that misfires before taking off. The myth of Dean and Sal alive and well in Twilight Series-America, ahhh.

"I first met met Neal not long after my father died..."

I too think ol' Buk was being a sort of sourpuss about Jack.
 
I know Kerouac wasnt greatly appreciated by some of you guys on here...

(by the way...i'm back...have been reading for months working night shift but havent been fussed about replying!)

but goddamnit...i love kerouac...picked OTR up at 16, read the fuck out of it, read The town and the city...which i also like...then Dharma Bums, Big Sur, Visions of Cody and so forth...

Kerouacs early stuff is amazing at a certain time in your life, and i think if you read it then it stays with you as you get older...granted i'm moving onto his more 'out there' stuff...but it still sticks with you...

I just read 'catcher in the rye'....i may have like dit had i read it a few years ago...to be honest i thought it was balls...but im not going to piss someone else off because they like it...

MJP, i know i dont have any kind of standing in this place, but i think you've gone in too hard and too fast on poor Bicycle...most of us here are used to your brand of humour and general demeanour...seems to me if i had gotten a MJPing when i just arrived i'd probably just shit myself and run...

ANYWAY.........

hi again everyone...long time no see...


Oh and most importantly...

Bicycle....just let it go....the guys on here are sound...

it just takes a little time to get used to the dynamics...

As i think all the others would agree

(some of us still havent done that..hence my 45 posts...but that could be the excessive drinking and night working that i occupy my time with since i joined!)

Koya
 
From what I recall, I never got the impression that Bukowski considered Kerouac a bad writer or a competitor. What he objected to in one of his Free Press or Open City columns was the way Kerouac had put Neal up on such a g.d. idealistic pedestal - the unrealistic hero worship of the Beats, and consequently the pressure for Neal to conform to that literary distortion in the public eye for the rest of his life. I don't think Buk ever forgave Jack for setting Neal up like that, and the impact of Jack's book on his friend was evidently something Kerouac never considered, perhaps because he never thought the book would become the sensation it did. But it looked to me that his glorification of Neal became a suffocating prison.

I think the closest Buk ever got to the spirit of the Beats (while never being one himself) is that he had a soft spot for Neal. Right before Neal's death, Buk ran into him, shared a beer and a ride around the block, and soon wrote what I remember as a heartfelt, moving remembrance. At least it was real, and I thought it better than anything Jack or any of the other Beat writers could have done. That was the strange irony of it all: Buk was the one life had called upon to put the words down best, and the obit turned Neal back into a regular human being like the rest of us, rather than the personality-distorted, inflated-caricature that Neal had to suffer under after On the Road became such a surprising best-seller in the late "50s.

I myself was never much impressed with Neal, through no fault of his own; I simply felt that he'd been forced into being the consummate Beat prototype, the spontaneous adventurer, fearless at all times. It was painful to see how uncomfortable he was with the role (captured on film in an interview with a gushing Ginsberg), and the pressure of it all may have shortened his life - a fact that I feel Bukowski took great notice of out of fondness for Neal and their singular meeting. It's one of the best pieces I remember because you could see how far Bukowski was grounded in the humanity of reality, at least when compared to the glorification of Neal by the Beats. Nevertheless, I never considered each of these two great writers as having to be mutually exclusive of each other... I enjoyed them both tremendously for their flaws as well as their strengths.
 
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From what I recall, I never got the impression that Bukowski considered Kerouac a bad writer or a competitor.

I may have read wrong but "furry flotsam" brings to mind shit long unflushed (I take that as criticism of his writing, though i could be wrong). Personally speaking, Salinger resonated in grade school, Kerouac resonated in college, Bukowski resonates beyond. All three have their place.
 
MJP, I just signed up, I can already tell that Bukowski's deceased dick is so far up your ass that you can't see straight.
 
6,586 threads, you "just sign up" and head to one that's two years old just to try to insult me. Imagine that. And completely out of the blue. Incredible. What are the odds?
 
Nope. Just started reading "Hollywood." Saw the chapter about Mack Derouac and searched on the internet and I found the forum with the first result.

But from this thread alone I can tell that your Bukowski worship is disgusting.
 
A lot of Bukowski fans are not into forums. You can enjoy him without being on this forum. If the plan is to just insult people here, your career will be a short one.

Best,
Bill
 
I'll stay on the forum as long as want, thanks though. As far as my career goes, I never planned on having a career on a message board. And obviously, MJP gets along just fine insulting people, but I guess that doesn't matter as long as you worship Bukowski to very unhealthy levels. Still, I wonder what any of this has to do with you.
 
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