Music timeline from Google research (a.k.a. what is heavy metal?) (1 Viewer)

mjp

Founding member
All deference to Jon Lord in the musicianship department. No deference at all in terms of genre. But then again, only spoon-fed idiots really need genres to decide if they like a piece of music.

Oh, and "Heavy Metal" does not equal metal and Deep Purple are Mark I and Mark II and nothing else. Hard rock; blues-based riff rock, et alia. Not metal, maily because of what metal now is. Purple is not what it is. Nor were they ever what is was.

Same with Sabbath, Blue Oyster Cult, and Zeppelin. Hard Rock; nothing more, nothing less. I would add AC/DC to my point but I'd prefer to confine this discussion to the art of music, not Kindergarten-worthy graham cracker before lunch hacks.
 
Last edited:
Same with Sabbath...
You're a smart guy and you know a lot about music, but when you say that Black Sabbath wasn't heavy metal, you're just being a curmudgeon for the sake of curmudgeonlyness. Or something.

Black Sabbath was heavy metal. They defined it. It didn't exist before their first record. What it is now is irrelevant. Saying "because of what metal now is," is like saying The Godfather isn't a gangster movie because of what gangster movies are now.

I wouldn't call Led Zeppelin a heavy metal band, but they certainly had their share of metal tunes. Kashmir is pure metal. Plodding, heavy, minor-laden dirge of unadulterated heavy metal. Accept it. It sure as shit ain't rock and roll.

I wouldn't call Deep Purple a heavy metal band either, for the record.

But I know what "heavy metal" is when I smell it, and so do you.

Besides, if we don't put records into categories how are we going to know where to go in the record store?
 
genetically speaking it has Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple's DNA all over it.
Not really. The first Led Zeppelin album came out in 1969 (as did Led Zeppelin II - they didn't fuck around in those days), and the first Black Sabbath album in 1970 (as did Paranoid - they were no slackers either), but they are most definitely not the same kinds of beasts. (On a somewhat related note, the first two Stooges records came out in 1969 and 1970, and when you put them in this context you can see how tremendously fucking weird and different they were from the rest of the "rock" being made.)

Dazed and Confused
wouldn't have sounded out of place on either of those first two Black Sabbath albums, but the rest of the Zeppelin stuff is, as Purple Stickpin suggests, basically really loud blues. I don't see much parallel between early Sabbath and Zeppelin either in their sound or intention (that perfect Satan worshiping soundtrack tune, Dazed and Confused, aside).

I can speak somewhat to Sabbath's "intention" because I saw them when I was 15 years old and they scared the shit out of me. And I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they were trying to do. It was not a "party" atmosphere. It was not rock and roll. I also saw Led Zeppelin in the mid-70s, and the impression I got from them is that they just wanted to get really drunk and (try to) fuck everyone's sisters (probably all at the same time in the same room). It was pure rock and roll, as it should probably be defined in the dictionary.

Deep Purple always occupied a different space for me. I wouldn't compare them to either of those bands. But really, I didn't even know who Deep Purple was until Machine Head, and I wasn't exactly an aficionado of any of those bands. These are just my memories of the days when they were relevant and putting out "new" music. At the time I was probably listening more to Alice Cooper records.

I abandoned it all shortly after I found it anyway, when I was still a teenager and that first Ramones record came out and immediately made almost everything that came before it look pompous and overblown.

Gah, I never intend to type these fucking screeds, but I always end up here.
 
Not really.

... but when you say that Black Sabbath wasn't heavy metal, you're just being a curmudgeon for the sake of curmudgeonlyness. Or something. Black Sabbath was heavy metal. They defined it.

[...I wouldn't call Led Zeppelin a heavy metal band, but they certainly had their share of metal tunes. Kashmir is pure metal. Accept it. It sure as shit ain't rock and roll.]

[...I wouldn't call Deep Purple a heavy metal band either, for the record.
Deep Purple, together with Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, have been referred to as the "unholy trinity of British hard rock and heavy metal in the early to mid-Seventies"
I agree with that.

It's all back to previous influence again and what groups start out as, isn't the same as what they evolve into or incorporate along the way. They all had heavy blues and rock influence, but Black Sabbath seemed at the outset fully formed heavy metal perhaps.

ps I saw Motorhead in Edinburgh 1984 - does that count.
 
Besides, if we don't put records into categories how are we going to know where to go in the record store?
:DD
I think we might agree on what Sabbath is without necessarily being able to tell the placard manufacturers exactly what to print up. To me, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, and Led Zeppelin belong in the same category because the songs were structured, tended to be riff-based, but there was definitely some level of improvisation going on in live performances that is generally missing from metal, which tends to be very highly structured with bass often doubling the guitars (a technique I generally despise). So if you want to call Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, and Led Zeppelin heavy metal or hard rock, at least some of the time, I wouldn't necessarily disagree. But I could live without the term heavy metal and simply use hard rock for all three plus many other bands. But of the three I mentioned, Zeppelin is the more diverse in terms of output. When Deep Purple played the blues, they were playing hard rock. When Zeppelin played the blues, they were playing the blues hard. Granted, blues someone else had written years before, but blues nonetheless. :jesus:

But Zeppelin utilized many genres effectively - perhaps even creating one or two that are really hard to define.

For the record, I'm referring to

Purple '69-'73
Sabbath '70-'74
Zeppelin '69-'77
 
Last edited:
In my mind, Helter Skelter "feels" like one of the earliest metal songs. But the closest thing I've ever played to an instrument is the skin flute (no, not really).
 
there was definitely some level of improvisation going on in live performances that is generally missing from metal...
"Metal" and "heavy metal" are two separate genres to me. When I think metal I think of that second wave of British bands (Def Leppard and that ilk that sprouted up around the same time British punk was happening) all the way up to the Sunset Strip bands in the first half of the 80s. A lot of unimaginative, formulaic crap (that will probably never go out of style unless hormonaly ragey 15 year old boys go out of style).

Heavy metal was a much more sinister sounding thing that morphed into speed metal, black metal, and all the other 42 metals they have now. All those twiddly wankers with the pointy guitars. Wait, that could also describe the Sunset Strip bands...
 
Most certainly - and that's part of the point I'm trying to make: hard rock and heavy metal aren't all that different, but either of those genres are very different from metal.
 
with bass often doubling the guitars (a technique I generally despise).
That reminds me of a joke we used to have in the early 80s. We said that there were some California lottery scratch-off tickets that had YOU ARE NOW THE BASS PLAYER FOR A SUNSET STRIP BAND! as a prize.

Because, you know, it seemed like anyone who could strap on a bass and hold a pick and go dum dum dum dum on a string (and move a finger every 16 "dums") could play bass in those bands.

Okay, I'll stop now.
 
There's some truth to your scenario - any idiot can play bass in an idiotic situation. While I can see some merit in the concept of making the low end stronger (hell, most classical music up through Haydn and Mozart comes as a 'cello/bass part that has no differences), I've played guitar since 1977 and bass since 1980, and part of my love for bass is that it's a helluva lot more interesting and challenging than is guitar.

But my distaste for doubling isn't just that it's spoonfeeding the listener and the musician (hey, great - let's insult everybody); it's that it removes the fluidity of music that moves in several directions at the same time. I'll leave it at that.
 
Last edited:
This popped up in my Google+ stream today. Seems appropriate for this thread. ;)

music.jpg
 
I recommend watching the series Metal Evolution. It changed my view of a genre I dislike. The writer in addition to being Canadian (cool eh!)

Shortbus- I watched the first 2 episodes on Youtube last night - really enjoyed them. I think there is 11 in total, not sure where I will stop, but if the rest is as good, will watch all of them. I would recommend them for any music fan, not just heavy metal. Thanks for that!
 
What makes the series good is you know Dunn has tried to dig as far as possible into the craft-Metal. He is a fan. I haven't seen his other works but I suspect they would be as good as this series. He literally tries to interview everyone…and usually succeeds.
 
Did you see the bit when he was interviewing the guy from Sweet, omg! he had on this caramel coloured full monty shoulder length wig - not just a wee discreet toupe thing, it looked like my daughter's long haired guinea pig (Buzz), perched on his head. I couldn't watch, I had to sit with my hands over my eyes until he was away.

Also, only got up to 3rd episode on Youtube, then it's all in bits, had to resubscribe to netflix.
 
Any other metal heads on here into Faith No More, by the way? I loved them up to and including 'Angel Dust'. They lost something when Jim Martin left though (obviously :p ).
 
Interesting that you happened to post to this old thread again today. For today, my copy of the deluxe Black Sabbath double CD arrived at my humble domicile. It's so clearly in the Hard Rock vein it's not even funny - especially the bonus material. I don't understand why some folks cling to this dubious distinction that Black Sabbath created Metal and therefore they were great. No, they were just great. If they actually created the genre we know as Metal, that actually sullies them in my eyes. Metal is silly, high school, pseudo-sophisticated, pretty-boy tripe. Black Sabbath was aggressive, innovative, intelligent, high school art that has stood the test of time (at least through '74 or so). Nearly all the Metal I've heard doesn't stand the test of the time it takes me to pick up my dog's poop on my lawn.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top