What about literary workshops? (1 Viewer)

[pichon64]

I started writing in 1979. Long before I discovered Bukowski. The need for writing was always beyond anything else. I can't stop writing. And what I write has no shape or fall into any category. Looks like prose that resembles (sometimes and hopefully) poetry. Like short stories scenes that comes and go from nowhere. Every time I tried a 'conventionally' crafted story I can't reach the end of it because on the way a million other ideas (not necessarily good) distracts me and make me start a million other pieces. I recently began attending a literary workshop, trying to obtain some 'discipline' (sort of) for my 'neverending' problem (if it's a problem at all).

What I learnt from Bukowski (and from a bunch of South-american writers) is the 'cut-to-the-bone' descriptions he used on scenes and actions. At the literary workshop I'm known as the 'ax wielder' because I use to chop everyone else's excessive use of adjectives (you know, an issue when you start to write) :) In my country, Universities have not literary workshops. All are 'private' and run by more or less known uruguayan writers. Of course, a good writer is not necessary a good teacher, but... I learnt a good bunch of useful tips anyway.

Well, the main question for this new thread is: how many of you attend or attended literary workshops? Do you find them useful?

 

[mjp]

Useful, no. Dangerous, yes. That is assuming you are not just writing for fun, but rather to leave your brilliant mark on the world.

Look at what you just said - your writing falls into no category, yet you sought out someone(s) with more "knowledge" than you to teach you rules and force it into accepted form, presumably so it can then be categorized. Once it's safely categorized it can be marginalized and ignored.

There is a "next Bukowski" thread around here, and the point is made (by me, but hey, I'm typing this, so tough shit) that the writing of "next Bukowski" will not be something we readily recognize and we will not be able to categorize it.

I'm not saying that everyone with a lack of form or focus is the "next Bukowski." I'm just saying a classroom and a teacher would do nothing but destroy the "next Bukowski."

This is not a popular opinion, I know, but it's 4:52 AM and I can't sleep, so I guess you have to read my bullshit opinion: you can't teach someone to be a good writer. Period.

That's my answer to your question, I'm sure you will get others that disagree with it. They will probably come from people much smarter than I am. And more well rested.

 

[pichon64]

I can't help it, mjp. Your answers are always welcome. :) Fortunately for me, the guy who runs the literary workshop I attend takes care of each member's own style. On the very first session he said exactly the same you wrote: nobody can't teach you how to be a good writer. He just try to guide us avoiding the common mistakes you made when you start, excess of adjectives, unnecessary repetitions, etc, and he teachs us how to build a credible character, a credible dialogue, etc. I know this is dangerously close to 'writing establishment'.

And I agree with you: the next B will raise his/her head without help, coming from an unexpected place, time and style.

The workshop's 'teacher' (it's just a way to call him) have as a norm that you can follow his guidelines or do what you please. He said: 'First, write enjoying what you're doing... We'll take care of the rest later. And if you want, never.'

But above all this, he believes I write very well, so... :D I respect him for that :D

 

[Father Luke]

Here is what Tom Spanbauer says about the art of teaching:

If you asked my mother how she made pie crust, she never
said a word. Instead, she just lifted her hand and rubbed
her fingers against her thumb. That's the way it is for me
and teaching. It has a feel. I'm not someone who knows and
the student is someone who does not know. Each person
who is a student of writing is a student of life. I too am a
student. Good writers know that about themselves. My job
as a teacher is to first create a safe environment. It is a
terrifying thing to bring your inner life out of the closet and
read it aloud to a group. Secondly, I must listen for the
heart break, the rage, the shame, the fear that are hidden
within the words. Then I must respect where each individual
student is in relation to his or her broken heart and act
accordingly. Most of all, at the beginning, as a teacher, I
must give the permission to do it wrong. In the wrongness
there is a treasure. If a wrong note is played long enough,
the dissonance can become the speech of angels. And last, I
think, and most important, but important because it is last,
when my relationship with the student is solid, and when
the student has a strong foothold in his or her writing, I
bring out my jungle red fingernails, play the devil's
advocate, be the bad cop, the irreverant fool--whatever it
takes to teach perseverance, self-trust, and discipline.
Because I encourage excellence, and each of us has our own
excellent, and excellence only comes with not being afraid
of who you are. To learn to speak your truth honestly with a
clear vioice takes lots of practice, and every trick in the
book to keep you going down the arduous, cruel, lonely,
glorious path of a writer.

Spanbauer teaches a writing workshop called
Dangerous Writing. His alumni are pretty impressive:

Chuck Palahniuk
Jenifer Lauck
Amy Hemple

I believe that writers may become educated.
How that happens is anybody's baby.

By that I mean will it be formal education,
or will it be self taught?

But, in the end, writers write.

- -
Okay,
Father Luke

 

[mjp]

Spanbauer teaches a writing workshop called Dangerous Writing.

"Dangerous Writing" is an approach to writing championed by Spanbauer. [...]The approach is a brand of minimalism that utilizes many literary techniques pioneered by Spanbauer and other Gordon Lish-influenced writers. The emphasis is on [...] writing what personally scares or embarrasses you in order to explore and artistically express those fears honestly. Most "dangerous writing" is written in first-person narrative for this reason and deals with heavy subject manner such as cultural taboos.

Hmm, that was pioneered by "Spanbauer and other Gordon Lish-influenced writers," was it? On what planet?

This is funny though, from Chuck Palahniuk on Amy Hempel:

"Oh, and in minimalism, no abstracts. No silly adverbs like sleepily, irritably, sadly, please."

In other words, none of the words Martin added to the first edition of Women to "improve" it.

 

[poptop]

Hi Pinchon,

A few thoughts.

We all have the potential to develop our natural expressive powers.

Being a writer is not about being published but rather being the kind of person that makes sense of the world around them through writing.

The term "natural writing" begins with wholeness, specifically with the innate human drive to shape personally meaningful, coherent wholes.

Good writing demonstrates a coherence, unity, and sense of wholeness; a recurrence of words and phrases, ideas, or images that reflect pattern sensitivity; an awareness of the nuances of language rhythms; a significant and natural use of images and metaphors; and a powerful "creative tension."

See if your library has a copy of WRITING THE NATURAL WAY by Gabrielle Rico. Give it a month and see what happens.

Knowing anything in its deepest sense means knowing how to be creative with it.

Good luck, Poptop

 

[pichon64]

See if your library has a copy of WRITING THE NATURAL WAY by Gabrielle Rico. Give it a month and see what happens.

Thanks for the advice, poptop. I'll try to find it.

Nice text, Father Luke. I just copy it for later and offline reading...

mjp, hope you get some rest :)

 

[mjp]

We all have the potential to develop our natural expressive powers.

Sorry, that assumes that every living person has "natural expressive powers," which is...do pardon me...bull~shite.

We have all seen examples of people who are wholeheartedly and absolutely dedicating their lives to their art, but who do not possess even an atom's worth of talent or ability.

It's easier to see than ever nowadays with all the American Idol-type shows flooding your TV. You think those people who cannot sing to save their lives are kidding when they say they aren't going to give up after being rejected? They aren't. They are delusional because at an impressionable time of their lives someone lied to them and told them they had a special talent when they did not.

Everyone does have a story, there is no doubt about that. There is not a person on earth who couldn't tell you something extraordinary if you ask the right questions. But very few of them are capable of writing that story down themselves. Not in any form you would want to read, anyway.

The truth is, a life of freedom and creativity is usually a life of relative (or absolute) financial poverty and constant uncertainty. If that's an acceptable situation for you, congratulations. But it takes a lot of guts - a tremendous amount of guts (or the previously mentioned delusion) - to really live that way.

 

[Carterofmars]

" I'm just saying a classroom and a teacher would do nothing but destroy the "next Bukowski."

Here, here.

 

[poptop]

Sorry, that assumes that every living person has "natural expressive powers," which is...do pardon me...bull~shite.

Hi mjp. When have we agreed on anything, ever? Let's just leave it at that. Some people like to open doors, and others like to slam them in the face of those who are struggling for a way out after years of heated failure. You might have read the before and after examples in Rico's book before slamming the door on what's possible in your experience, but you didn't, and you won't, and you'll feel justified that you know what the hell you're talking about and miss the art, the self-expression that's found in the unsuspected corners of the universe. Sometimes we never know how or when someone is ready to burst into bloom creatively. It happened to Henry Miller at the advanced age of 40... While I am grateful for the creation of this fine forum through your genuine love of Bukowski and your stalwart efforts, I steer clear of you repeated and often because I find it a better use of my time than butting heads with you... leading to nowhere... and we both end up feeling like shit. I'm not into feeling like shit; I'm into celebrating any creative discoveries I make... sharing them... and for people to find out for themselves what they are capable of. I left behind feeling like shit years ago and I consider it a vast improvement. I refuse to die in bitterness in a rusted trash can. Having said that, I nevertheless wish you well.

Sincerely, Poptop

 

[vodka]

i've taken workshop in school by two different teachers who used two different styles. both teachers were careful to make everyone aware that while they could show us the basics, it would be up to us to develop our own style and decide which rules we would mind and which we would break. i think that if you take writing from someone who is too heavy handed it can be detrimental, but a really good teacher can give you a leg up... teach you about those nasty adverbs and things like that.

the nice thing about developing and maturing as a writer is that you become able to identify who you want to learn from.

on Mary, i try to tell writers to read read read, discover who's work they admire and then seek help from those people. writers helping writers can be a really cool thing.

sometimes a writer may be aware enough to find you. since Father Luke's return to my website i have been fortunate enough to receive a number of amazing critiques from him and have learned more in the time since he's been back to the website than i have in the past three years of workshopping either online or in uni, although technically Mary is a workshop and i wouldn't have met Father Luke without it. (stop rolling your eyes at me it's true he gives really good critique try him yourself if you don't believe me)

anyway, my longwinded point is that writing workshops can work if you have the right teacher.

 

[mjp]

July 4 independence rant - run away! Run away!

I left behind feeling like shit years ago and I consider it a vast improvement. I refuse to die in bitterness in a rusted trash can. Having said that, I nevertheless wish you well.

You make the common mistake of confusing uncomfortable truth and strong opinion with "bitterness." It is why so many people considered George Carlin to be a bitter man, because he expressed his anger and disappointment (of course those same people praised him when he was safely in the ground).

It is why ignorant rednecks burned Dixie Chicks records and why people turn their backs on comedians like Janeane Garofalo the minute they express an opinion. No one likes a strong opinion. It makes people squeamish. It is easy to dismiss strong opinions by labeling them as "bitter." It is much more difficult to deal with everyone's opinion and truth.

If you think everyone is a special untapped genius, good for you. You are not alone. You're as wrong as wrong can be, but most people are wrong about something. I could very well be wrong about all of this. How's that for a big juicy Sedona zen hippie riddle to ponder?

Personally, I am a very happy man. I live with a beautiful, funny, artistic genius, I commute about 15 minutes (no freeways) to an easy, high paying desk job, and I have less debt than the average American (which is still a lot of debt). Every week we grill big American steaks on our comically huge four burner propane grill. I stand in front of the grill and drink beer and stare at the nearby mountains and laugh at my luck. I'm not kidding. I laugh out loud. If you knew where I came from you'd understand.

So don't try to paint me as some bitter old recluse living in a tinfoil-lined apartment and existing on microwave popcorn and Mountain Dew. There is no rusty trash can in my world.

So yeah, I live a great life, but I am still as angry as hell about quite a few things, and I reserve my right to speak my mind. And I completely respect anyone's and everyone's right to disagree with me. I don't even run this place anymore, hank solo and Father Luke do, so have at me. There will be no reprisal. I will argue my point (as I am now), that's it. You don't have to "steer clear" of me or walk on eggshells. No one does. I'm just an intern.

But as you may or may not know, I came of age, so to speak, in a strange subculture that invited and encouraged conflict. I have been jeered, berated, cursed, spit at and physically assaulted by people standing three feet from me, so these tea and crumpets clickety-click computer keyboard typed "arguments" are really kid stuff. I do not miss the constant conflict, but I am always prepared for it. It's part of my DNA now, for better or worse.

There, there's a fucking autobiography for you. I still expect you to buy the real one I'm writing when it's finished. Bastards. Live through me vicariously. It's the least you can do.

 

[poptop]

i've taken workshop in school by two different teachers who used two different styles. both teachers were careful to make everyone aware that while they could show us the basics, it would be up to us to develop our own style and decide which rules we would mind and which we would break. i think that if you take writing from someone who is too heavy handed it can be detrimental, but a really good teacher can give you a leg up... teach you about those nasty adverbs and things like that.

the nice thing about developing and maturing as a writer is that you become able to identify who you want to learn from.

on Mary, i try to tell writers to read read read, discover who's work they admire and then seek help from those people. writers helping writers can be a really cool thing.

sometimes a writer may be aware enough to find you. since Father Luke's return to my website i have been fortunate enough to receive a number of amazing critiques from him and have learned more in the time since he's been back to the website than i have in the past three years of workshopping either online or in uni, although technically Mary is a workshop and i wouldn't have met Father Luke without it. (stop rolling your eyes at me it's true he gives really good critique try him yourself if you don't believe me)

anyway, my longwinded point is that writing workshops can work if you have the right teacher.

vodka [small v correct?],

Beautifully put. I enjoy your posts. Luck with your writing.

May Father Luke's presence continue to bless us all ;-)

poptop

 

[ROC]

Bastards. Live through me vicariously. It's the least you can do.

Can I get this on a T-shirt?

 

[Father Luke]

kof

 

[pichon64]

I want one! Here: 20 bucks!

(Here's Father Luke: fastest graphic artist this side of the Rio Grande)

 

[Gerard K H Love]

This thread is a literary workshop .

I am easily entertained. Always remember some of your very best friends have butted heads with you at some point. Even at the onset of your friendship. Great minds think alike and when two heads are approaching the same end from different directions they usually bump.
It is hard, sometimes, to realise who your friends are.

I want one of those T-shirts too.

 

[mjp]

I would buy that shirt. When people ask me what it means I'll say, "I don't know. I just think it makes me look pretty."

 

[jmoshea]

You make the common mistake of confusing uncomfortable truth and strong opinion with "bitterness." It is why so many people considered George Carlin to be a bitter man, because he expressed his anger and disappointment (of course those same people praised him when he was safely in the ground).

It is why ignorant rednecks burned Dixie Chicks records and why people turn their backs on comedians like Janeane Garofalo the minute they express an opinion. No one likes a strong opinion. It makes people squeamish. It is easy to dismiss strong opinions by labeling them as "bitter." It is much more difficult to deal with everyone's opinion and truth.

If you think everyone is a special untapped genius, good for you. You are not alone. You're as wrong as wrong can be, but most people are wrong about something. I could very well be wrong about all of this. How's that for a big juicy Sedona zen hippie riddle to ponder?

Personally, I am a very happy man. I live with a beautiful, funny, artistic genius, I commute about 15 minutes (no freeways) to an easy, high paying desk job, and I have less debt than the average American (which is still a lot of debt). Every week we grill big American steaks on our comically huge four burner propane grill. I stand in front of the grill and drink beer and stare at the nearby mountains and laugh at my luck. I'm not kidding. I laugh out loud. If you knew where I came from you'd understand.

So don't try to paint me as some bitter old recluse living in a tinfoil-lined apartment and existing on microwave popcorn and Mountain Dew. There is no rusty trash can in my world.

So yeah, I live a great life, but I am still as angry as hell about quite a few things, and I reserve my right to speak my mind. And I completely respect anyone's and everyone's right to disagree with me. I don't even run this place anymore, hank solo and Father Luke do, so have at me. There will be no reprisal. I will argue my point (as I am now), that's it. You don't have to "steer clear" of me or walk on eggshells. No one does. I'm just an intern.

But as you may or may not know, I came of age, so to speak, in a strange subculture that invited and encouraged conflict. I have been jeered, berated, cursed, spit at and physically assaulted by people standing three feet from me, so these tea and crumpets clickety-click computer keyboard typed "arguments" are really kid stuff. I do not miss the constant conflict, but I am always prepared for it. It's part of my DNA now, for better or worse.

There, there's a fucking autobiography for you. I still expect you to buy the real one I'm writing when it's finished. Bastards. Live through me vicariously. It's the least you can do.

I love it, baby.

 

[slimedog]

Wow, Poptop and MJP dueling again, is this deja vu or an acid flashback?

I had only one writing class, a night adult educational thing. But I did learn one thing from my teacher which was simply to be myself and not to write like anybody else. A very important lesson and that's what I needed.

I wished I grilled steaks and laughed at mountains. It sounds like fun.

 

[mjp]

I wished I grilled steaks and laughed at mountains. It sounds like fun.

It is. You'd think it would get old, but it never does.

I am not dueling with poptop, we just don't agree on anything. He is a peace hippie and I am something else.

But I am also part peace hippie.

I was a Rastafarian for fuck's sake.

I'm just not one anymore.

It's that incongruity that seems to be a problem here, where Dr. Top is concerned. I, personally, don't have a problem with it. ;)

 

[slimedog]

I enjoy it muchly, excellant rant, anyway, but is it me or did poptop leave several years ago and just "popped" up again.

I'm enjoying my life but to be on some kind of patio, grilling steaks, drinking beer and laughing maniacally at some peaceful mountains just give me an image of pure exctasy.

 

[Gerard K H Love]

I would rather be grilling big fat steaks and laughing at the mountains

That would be OK on the T-shirt.

 

[mjp]

apropos of everything

I would like this on a t-shirt please:

A society made up of individuals who were all capable of original thought would probably be unendurable. The pressure of ideas would simply drive it frantic.

- H.L. Mencken




The entire quote is of course a wee bit more cynical and resigned (it's Mencken after all), and probably wouldn't fit on a t-shirt...

"A society made up of individuals who were all capable of original thought would probably be unendurable. The pressure of ideas would simply drive it frantic. The normal human society is very little troubled by them. Whenever a new one appears the average man displays signs of dismay and resentment, The only way he can take in such a new idea is by translating it crudely into terms of more familiar ideas. That translation is one of the chief functions of politicians, not to mention journalists. They devote themselves largely to debasing the ideas launched by their betters. This debasement is intellectually reprehensible, but probably necessary to carry on the business of the world."

 

[Father Luke]

I would like this on a t-shirt please

 

[mjp]

I better see some royalties when you sell hundreds of thousands of those. I know where you live.

 

[Father Luke]

Fuck that. I'm donating the profits to the GPP

See ya' around, intern. . .

 

[gedgib]

I have found that literary workshops--and literary evaluation of one's own writing in general--requires swallowing many grains of salt. You have to get to the point where you can view the opinions from the perspective of how they represent different populations of audiences.

For example, I recall a story I once wrote that was somewhat experimental and was in the realm of science fiction. It was written in the journal voice of a guy living a couple of hundred years from now. It used all the shorthand and jargon that one often uses in a journal--a somewhat more extreme version of the unusual vocab and thinking in Stranger in a Strange Land.

Anyway, I submitted it to a writing group. Some of the people "got it" and some thought it was the most confusing thing they had ever read. I was willing to learn from all of these reactions, but I had to consider the interests of the people submitting the notes. As it happened, many of the people who didn't "get it"--and the population of readers I saw them as representing--would probably have never picked up science fiction to begin with. And by the same token, a Romance writer, say, would probably get little of value from my excreting on their work.

Upshot: you have to dig to find the right group, editor, forum, etc. for your stuff. That can be tough, but worth it.

 

[Buzzcat]

Back, shit, when? Um, between the summers of '92 & '93 I took some correspondence course in creative writing. I learned a couple things about the craft. But, nothing taught me more about writing than writing a novel during the same time.

Not that any of it at all did me any good. I've only gotten a couple stories and poems published in rinky dink places and even if I did get something bigger out there it wouldn't really matter because even if anyone ever actually read something I wrote, I wouldn't even know it because no one ever bothers to comment on a single letter of it. So in conclusion, I just assume what I write sucks shit. But, still, that don't stop me. If I didn't write constantly, I would've intentionally ODd on pills and booze a LONG fuckin' time ago.



(oooh that was a pleasant little burst of self-deprication eh?)

 

[vodka]

you want people to comment on your published shit?

 

[Father Luke]

you want people to comment on your published shit?

no. i want them to buy it. ;)

 

[vodka]

well, Father Luke, i always pretty much figured you'd just send me whatever i wanted. plus money to read it. and naked pixx plz. meeeee-ow punkin.



and i also always kind of figured that getting published was comment enough?

i could be wrong though.

although it would probably be the first time.

 

[Carterofmars]

Write with the thought that you'll never get published and never be appreciated for the insights you have. Everyone alive has about the same insights, there is nothing new to say- how you express them is something else altogether. If you give up now, you'll not give a rat's ass and then prob write some really cool stuff. but remember that no one gives a crap.

i hope this helped.


joe

 

[Buzzcat]

Exactly Joe. Although I'm sure my convoluted and walking contradiction of blather above didn't quite make that clear.

 

[anna101]

i've been to one at my school. it was taught by a writer.
i find it to be the biggest load of dogmatic preaching that i ever did encounter. all he did was harp on other peoples' stories and tell them about "what would work." a couple of people were really broken down. one girl was even crying. he seemed to believe that he was the ultimate authority on "what worked."

 

[chronic]

Some people don't understand the difference between critiquing and criticizing. Critiques can be very useful (and even fun) when learning to apply technique to creative work, but there's always going to be at least one asshole in the class. When the teacher is the asshole it becomes a problem.

 

[pichon64]

It's a fact from life: a good writer isn't necessarily a good teacher. The same applies to every discipline. Teaching is an art in itself. I got lucky. My master is a good writer and also a nice teacher. As a bonus, it is a nice human being.

 

[poptop]

He ain't got no learnin'

DISCLAIMER: Do not try this dangerous language at home without adult supervision. ;)

In keeping with what can or cannot be learned at workshops or elsewhere, here are a few grammatical rules with a twist that I happened to stumble upon with my Id and enjoy - from a classroom at Dartmouth and found on a Russian website . . . yeah, as in The Hunt for Red October:

1. Make sure each pronoun agrees with their antecedent.
2. Just between you and I, the case of pronoun is important.
3. Watch out for irregular verbs which have crope into English.
4. Verbs has to agree in number with their subjects.
5. Don't use no double negatives.
6. Being bad grammar, a writer should not use dangling modifiers.
7. Join clauses good like a conjunction should.
8. A writer must be not shift your point of view.
9. About sentence fragments.
10. Don't use run-on sentences you got to punctuate them.
11. In letters essays and reports use commas to separate items in series.
12. Don't use commas, which are not necessary.
13. Parenthetical words however should be enclosed in commas.
14. Its important to use apostrophes right in everybodys writing.
15. Don't abbrev.
16. Check to see if you any words out.
17. In the case of a report, check to see that jargonwise, it's A-OK.
18. As far as incomplete constructions, they are wrong.
19. About repetition, the repetition of a word might be real
effective repetition - take, for instance the repetition of Abraham Lincoln.
20. In my opinion, I think that an author when he is writing should
definitely not get into the habit of making use of too many unnecessary
words that he does not really need in order to put his message across.
21. Use parallel construction not only to be concise but also clarify.
22. It behooves us all to avoid archaic expressions.
23. Mixed metaphors are a pain in the neck and ought to be weeded out.
24. Consult the dictionery to avoid mispelings.
25. To ignorantly split an infinitive is a practice to religiously
avoid.
26. Last but not least, lay off cliches.

Do svidanija!

 

[jmoshea]

may I ask what you do for a living Poptop?

 

[Gerard K H Love]

He's in Sedona Arizona- a rhyming place out west- so he must be retired.;)