"Are Books Dead?" (2 Viewers)

Justine: I assumed you own one already. You're first in line if I get a Kindle and decide I don't want it (which is very likely.)

Bill: I've read a fair amount on copyright but never heard of that idea it must be in the 28th year, and not before, but maybe that is the case. I've deal with law in my work and you're right: the language is very specific. A comma can change everything. I wondered how the book got reprinted as a paperback in 1968, how they got permission with the author missing. Maybe the copyright had already lapsed. Fascinating theory. And now, maybe the publisher of the ebook has figured this out and decided it's in public domain. So I'll hope for a real reprint (you know, edited and formatted and stuff), or at least a POD reprint.

The date on which the original publisher filed to renew suggests they jumped the gun by a few weeks. They filed on December 10, and it came up due January 1. Maybe they were worried about the paperwork getting processed during the holidays and built in too much lead time.
 
nope, i'm waiting for the price to drop and for better versions. i'm not one of those people who has to have something as soon as it comes out (technology-wise, anyway). i think it's still a young enough product that many improvements still need to be made, so i'm gonna hold out for a while longer.
 
Is this like Betamax vs. VHS? I waited for that one to be over before I committed. Of course I didn't own a t.v. or a VCR during the 1980s.

Caught some bits of this CBC Radio Ideas show yesterday. Closing the Book. Is radio dead?
 
I'm trying to hold out for "the good e-readers" but am losing patience lately. Not because I'm a tech-head who needs the latest and greatest, but because a friend of mine has a novel out on Amazon. And she has no plans to put it to paper. (And honestly, no means by which to put it to paper either.)

Just checked and the Kindle is currently $139.00 and from $120.00 used. I'm thinking when the $100.00 price-barrier gets broken, the sun will shine through and a celestial choir will sing out. On my Amazon account, anyway.
 
Thanks for the link to that radio show, Digney. I'll listen and get angry. I'd feel a lot better if they just didn't call them books. Sticking an "e" on the front of "book" doesn't make it a book. If they were called "schmeffs", I would not be so against the whole idea. As in, "No, my novel hasn't seen book publication yet, but until that happy day, you can read it in schmeff form for only 99 cents!"

As much as I am against ebooks (and I want to murder them) I can still imagine using the format for cynically profiting off miscellaneous texts thrown together merely to make a buck. I would have no problem with "publishing" non-fiction in that format. But anything that feels like art (poetry, literary fiction), I would only want to publish on paper.

What happens when your Kindle breaks or gets lost? Do you rebuy the ebooks, or can you download them again for free? Can you sell a used ebook to someone? Can you move it from platform to platform? I'm sure I could Google the answers ...
 
i'm waiting for the price to drop...
when the $100.00 price-barrier gets broken, the sun will shine through and a celestial choir will sing out.
If I were running Amazon or Barnes and Noble, I'd give the readers away. All it would take is 4 or 5 book purchases to get the return on that investment, and the massive amounts of free publicity that move generated would put a nail into the coffin of the competing hardware/format. And of course I'd figure out how to pass those hardware costs on to the authors. Since I'd be a businessman and all.

The readers will become redundant eventually anyway, when enough people have tablet computers and smartphones and surgically implanted plasma data storage sacks in their brains.
What happens when your Kindle breaks or gets lost? Do you rebuy the ebooks, or can you download them again for free?
In most cases you can download them again (in some cases they don't even live on your hardware, but rather "in the cloud.") I guess the natural extension of your question though, is what happens to your books when your house burns down or is under 10 feet of water?
 
I don't own a Nook, so I can only hope it shows up in a Print On Demand edition. By the way, the book is still under copyright, apparently, but the publisher believes it's in the public domain.

You can get a free Nook reader application for your computer from the B&N site. Its not ideal, but if you just want to access this text then $1.99 for a digital copy beats the $$$$$ for a collectable paper edition. I haven't tried it but I will guess that printing the text out probably isn't possible.
 
hank solo: I'm genuinely tempted by that. Thanks for tip.

mjp: yeah, a friend of mine's house burned down and he lost thousands of rare books, records and original art works. Analog or digital -- it hardly matters when disaster strikes.

Just so you'll all not think me completely insane & irrational, I am of two minds when it comes to ebooks. Part A of my mind says a text is a text is a text, whether it's in print, scribbled in pencil on a napkin, stored on a web page, written in the sand with a stick. The words in the mind are what create literature. Media doesn't matter. I completely get that and agree, in Part A of my brain. Part B of my brain loves physical books, lives there most of the time, can't imagine a world where they not only exist, but are the pinnacle of culture, and hates the fact they are being supplanted by digital books. Part B wants to resist that inevitable change, wants to hold back the tide, and when it doesn't have a solid reason for doing so, will make up shit no matter how crazy it sounds. So, I could go either way on this question. But most of the time, I'm stuck in Part B.
 
well, if any of you dinosaurs receive an e-reader from a well-meaning friend....

You e-reader advocates are heartless fiends. *sniff*

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Part A of my mind says a text is a text is a text, whether it's in print, scribbled in pencil on a napkin, stored on a web page, written in the sand with a stick. The words in the mind are what create literature. Media doesn't matter. I completely get that and agree, in Part A of my brain. Part B of my brain loves physical books, lives there most of the time, can't imagine a world where they not only exist, but are the pinnacle of culture, and hates the fact they are being supplanted by digital books. Part B wants to resist that inevitable change, wants to hold back the tide, and when it doesn't have a solid reason for doing so, will make up shit no matter how crazy it sounds. So, I could go either way on this question. But most of the time, I'm stuck in Part B.

why does it have to be either/or? it can be both, you know.
 
Both are equally favorable - turning a blind eye to the future may result in a fender-mindbender. There are times an e-reader is a far better option than a book - there are times a book is the better option. I'm starting to sound like a Dylan song. I take my nine year old niece to the bookstore at least twice a month to satisfy her book fix and there is no "etch-a-sketch" as she puts e-books in her immediate future. She has that bookmarker for a reason. Heh. We live in times of overly rapid change which gives us that less-than-grounded feel and find no fault with those that say "Hey! Pull back on the reins"!
 
I have been doing a lot of thinking about this issue over the past week, ebooks vs real books, and I'm kind of doing a 180 on it. I still prefer real books, hands done, but I could be way wrong on the whole question. I do listen when you folks tell me I am full of it. And I am, so often. stay tuned.
 
I was reading an article in Vanity Fair about the writing/making/marketing of The Art of Fielding (the article is as much about the big-time publishing world as it is about the book itself), and it said in there somewhere that electronic sales for some best-sellers went fr0m 30% last summer to 50% this spring - in less than a year. Last year Amazon announced that they now sell more than 50% of their books as downloads.

People are obviously making their choice, and that choice is skewing digital. Like it or not.

To me it's no different than making a book on an antiquated letterpress or mimeograph or with toy rubber type - they're all books. Figure out a way to make an electronic version cool (no one has even started chipping away at that iceberg yet, but the possibilities are virtually limitless), and it's all a moot point. There will even be collectible electronic books. These books people download now will be collectible one day soon because they'll be obsolete and they'll seem quaint to kids who download interactive augmented-reality-GPS-driven books. Or whatever.

The article also reported that 14 billion dollars worth of books are sold in the US every year, not including textbooks and educational material.

So, yeah. Are books dead? Doesn't sound like it.
 
I don't want to go all Orwellian, but for me, I'm more concerned about how easily text can be altered when it's in electronic form. We're all well aware of Wikipedia and it's ability to confuse everyone with its "facts". I'm sure many have seen articles recently on the attempts (some successful) to change old texts, such as Catcher in the Rye, in order to fit with what is currently socially acceptable. How easily can a government erase history (or someones take on it) if it's all held in electronic form (the Russians are currently attempting to teach their kids a modern history of Russia that doesn't mention Stalin's atrocities; apparently Stalin may affect their self esteem, according to Putin).

I may have just had too much coffee. I am most certainly in no position to lead the battle cry. But before I influence a 'Kindle Burning', I do want to say that if fancy gadgets help get people reading then I'm all for that. After all, like the tobacco industry, we need to get to the children.
 
Some very smart and talented people here (mjp, Hosh, Justine, Jordan, Stavrogen, Jordan, Hank Solo, Purple Stickpin -- am I forgetting anyone?) have explained to me the pros and cons of this and I have listened. A couple days ago I had an insight. What has been pissing me off about ebooks really has nothing to do with literature or books. I'm pissed off because the 20th Century ended, and ebooks just remind me of that. Change has always been hard for me to accept.

I'll always prefer physical books. Reading screens gives me eye strain, and I like the feel, the smell, the look of real books. And I still believe, irrational as it may be, that physical books have some magic mojo. However, I have to admit that you can get a full literary experience reading an electronic text. Economically, for a writer, it makes sense to do ebooks. No up front costs for paper, ink, printing, binding, no shipping costs -- all that. If you can sell them (a big if), why leave the money on the table? And I need the money like a junky needs a fix. So I am open to the concept. I may not like it, but it's happening, and it may be a way to go if I want an audience and to make some income from my writing. So you have been warned. Don't call me a hypocrite if I start selling ebooks through Amazon or whatever. I have a shitload of bills and have done stupider things for a quick buck (such as SPIT).
 
I just had a look at that site, can I ask a question...

lots of people on there are talking about adverts on their kindles and having to pay to switch them off. Is that right? If so, fuck me. I don't want to be told what to read/eat/fuck everytime I go to read. I get that pretty much everywhere else.

I got hold of three great books from dusty bookstores today. Despite bouncing over the fence and back many times, todays experience reminded me of why I would rather invest any money I have in paper than e-books.

I'm off to touch up my dusty purchase (Stalin's Bodyguard) and then finish myself off with a yellowing, Penguin collection of William Wantling (£3-suck it e-readers)
 
yeah, it seems that on the $79 and $99 models, they send adds straight up your ass. You have to pay them $30 to make them stop.

Something you'll never see in paper books, you damn whippersnappers (shaking my angry old, ink-stained fist).

BIll
 
Paperbacks from the 60's and 70's often times had advertisements from cigarette companies smack down in the middle of the book. Just sayin' from a collector.
 
I was going to point that out, stav, but you beat me. I was just reading an old Philip K. Dick novel and somebody tore out the cigarette ad, taking part of the adjoining page with it.
 
Let's face it! Holding a physical thing in your hand involves most of all your senses and it is what makes life feel precious.
Do we need all those things to survive? Probably not, for the time being, then we tend to compensate with our imagination. The thing is that our imagination seems to atrophy with time. Your creativity becomes obsolete without a trade to practice. You can see that in all areas. Digital photography and videos replacing painting and sculpture. We need to create with new medias.
I still think, as I get older, that the last thing I could give up is a room with books and colours.
My brother's house burned down to the ground, a few years ago. He had precious art, books, old photos that had been in my family for generations. I asked him if he missed any of those things that he lost. He said that in a sense it was a relief.
Are books dead? Maybe... Not for me, if I can help it.
 
Nowadays I aint got no time to read either e-books, paper-books, or any other kind of book.
Except for the neverending and constantly expanding pages of Buknet tht is...
 
For me, as a reader, paper books will always be better, but as a writer, I can see advantages to ebooks. I don't think ebooks will kill paper books, but there is a shift in the balance going on, and it's unstoppable.

Like you said, Black Swan: a room full of books is essential. Without them, I'd feel like I was camping or in a hotel room.
 
I do think that books may be replaced by e-books. I also think that books will fall into a new category, not as a necessity, but rather as collectibles. The book itself as an object, just like crazy shoes .:DD
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I'm highly suggestible. And very gullible. I can be talked into all sorts of mischief. Plus, when you (I mean myself) are almost always proven wrong in all things, assuming you're wrong becomes a reflex action.

Changing your mind can be a powerful thing. Just don't hold me to any one position.
 
That explains it! I've always thought old leather-bound books smelled good enough to eat. Plus, it's the stuff that "prevents all trees from adopting the weeping habit." Old books always make me feel better when I am in a weepy state.
 
That's a nice bit of prosaic inaccuracy. While the structure of lignin contains monomeric units that are similar to vanillin, an important structural component of vanillin, which renders it a "volatile oil," is the aldehyde moiety. When lignin is formed, this aldehyde moiety is reduced to become a hydroxymethyne group. As the chemical constituents of the pages oxidize over the years, they are very unlikely to reform the aldehyde - oxidative decay would be far more likely.

But I agree that old books often smell good. They often smell like crap too.
 
Science! Bear in mind that the science of trees breaking down or weeping or oxidizing only applies to books made post 1850 or so. Before that they didn't use wood pulp to make paper.
 
What breaks down and decays in older books (pre-1850-ish) is the leather. I've read that much of it was incorrectly tanned plus too thinly shaved and it loses it's strength. Often the old calf will rub off in your hands as brownish red dust -- the so called "red rot." The paper in these books is usually strong and ages well.
 
My tutor for a letterpress course I started last night turned me onto this, which I thought fitted in well within the context of our discussion;

http://www.bookarts.uwe.ac.uk/mutancall10.htm

He was actually one of the artists who contributed to the 130 broadsides. You can see some of the broadsides here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/npstudio/sets/72157625192578467/

It looks like an amazing project.

I managed to find my tutor's entry for the above, which is again pertinent to this discussion...

http://www.library.fau.edu/depts/sp...mutanabbi/ciceros_observation_is_timeless.php
 
(Until I get a Kindle myself, at which point they will immediately become man's greatest invention in my eyes. I'm fickle like that.)

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Man's greatest invention? No.

But I will admit that I get a certain perverse pleasure in looking at rare old Bukowski books on it. Not to mention the other things it does pretty well.
 
mjp: Is Crucifix or It Catches available for Kindle?
hmmm, guess you would have shown those, instead og Cold Dogs, if they were available...
 
mjp: is that an actual ebook, or just a cover scan on your reader? I don't see any older Buk books as Kindle editions on Amazon. Maybe it's some other vendor?
 
It's the entire book. But it's a pdf that I made myself, it isn't for sale anywhere.

It, along with a lot of other things like the Wormwood chapbooks, 8 Story Window, Relentless As The Tarantula and Terror Street have been made into pdfs. They aren't for sale anywhere, you just have to know someone who knows someone who knows where to find them. Even though they are old and most were published by presses that don't exist anymore, making electronic versions and distributing them is almost certainly in violation of the estate's copyright.

Rekrab, I know you can find them. They are right under your nose.
 

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