Bukowski and Slam Poetry (1 Viewer)

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plasteredpoet

I remeber reading a poem in one of Buk's older anthologies, I can't remember which. In the poem I remember him talking about the black poets and how they wrote. If memory serves it seemed he was commenting about the chips they all seemed to have on their shoulders. This may be inaccurate, if anyone knows the poem I would really appreciate being enlightened as to it's title and the book where it can be found.

I wonder what Buk would make of the whole "Russell Simmons Def Poetry Slam"? If I am remembering the poem correctly it seems he was right on the money, almost predicting this trend in the medium.

I dunno, it just seems that that show really cut the whole artform down like wheat, compartmentalizing the it. Unless you are a minority, lesbian or gay and have an agenda, a bone to pick with straight, white society then your poetry is worthless. You aren't emoting from anyplace that is real or that matters.

I don't know about you, but I am sick of agendas in poetry. One of the things that I love about Buk's work is that he wasn't trying to sway my opinion or get me crying about his hardship. He hated help, "He'd piss on you if he could" I believe is the line from Barfly.

I was wondering if anyone else had any thoughts on this.
 
I'm not a fan of slams. I hate the whole rap/hip-hop delivery style and it's like watching a boxing match. Now these different Slam Crews are "starting beef" and all the other stupid bullshit that goes along with the whole ridiculous hip-hop scene.
 
The poem you're refering to is 'The Black Poets' from 'Mockingbird Wish Me Luck'. It follows the poem called 'The White Poets'.

The White Poets (excerpt)

the white poets usually knock quite early
and keep knocking and ringing
ringing and knocking
even though all the shades are down;

[...]


"I was here before. you were rather short. you didn't like my
poems."
"there are plenty of reasons for not liking
poems."
"try these."
he put them on me. they were flatter than the paper they were typed
upon. there wasn't a tick or a
flare. not a sound. I'd never read
less.


"uh," I said, "uh-uh."


"you mean you don't LIKE
them?"


"there's nothing there---it's like a pot of evaporated piss."

[...]
Click to expand...


the black poets (excerpt)


the black poets
young
come to my door---
"you Bukowski?"
"yeh. come in."


[...]

they hand me their poems.
I read
them.


"no," I say and hand them
back.


"you don't like
them?"


"no."


"'roi Jones came down to see us at our
workshop ..."


"I hate," I say,
"workshops."

[...]

"look muthafucka, I been on the radio, I been printed in the L.A.
Times!"


"oh?"

[...]

"o.k., muthafucka, you ain't seen the last of
me!"


I suppose I haven't. and it's useless to tell you that I am not
anti-black
because
somehow
that's when the whole subject becomes
sickening.
Click to expand...

Again, what we see really is disdain for almost everyone who isn't Bukowski.
 
Yeah, that's the one. I remeber seeing it a couple years ago in the warehouse. I was pulling an order and ran across it on a shelf. Whenever I come to A book of Buk's I always flip it open to a random page and read whatever is there. This time it happened to be the poem you quoted.

Precisely, disdain for anything that isn't Bukowski indeed.

There are rare times in his books where he actually states that a poet wasn't bad but they are definitely few and far between.

I know that he and another poet were putting together a monthly poetry review years ago. It just makes you wonder what criteria he used to decide who got selected for inclusion.

MadBull said:
I'm not a fan of slams. I hate the whole rap/hip-hop delivery style and it's like watching a boxing match. Now these different Slam Crews are "starting beef" and all the other stupid bullshit that goes along with the whole ridiculous hip-hop scene.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know what you mean. I mean, I appreciate rhyme and meter. I understand how it works, it just seems gimmicky to me when used this way. Like the writer has to add something tricky in order to make what he/she is saying palatable to the audiance.

And the whole "beef" thing. Whatever. Screw competition!

Or maybe not. Maybe I've got it all wrong. It's not about self expression or reportage from the frontlines of life, it's actually all about collecting accolades, prizes, prizes,prizes!!!!
 
plasteredpoet said:
I wonder what Buk would make of the whole "Russell Simmons Def Poetry Slam"?
Click to expand...
He would have thought it was a pop culture fad, which it is. Or was. All those groovy pomo bohemians who created that pot of creamed corn have already moved on to other great new things that we don't know about yet. Meth enemas or kneecap piercing or something. You'll see.
 
mjp said:
He would have thought it was a pop culture fad, which it is. Or was. All those groovy pomo bohemians who created that pot of creamed corn have already moved on to other great new things that we don't know about yet. Meth enemas or kneecap piercing or something. You'll see.
Click to expand...

Kneecap piercing?

And this:
Transrectal Methamphetamine Use: A Novel Route of
Exposure
Background: With the widespread abuse of methamphetamine, its
toxicity has been well described. The most common reported routes
of exposure include intravenous injection, intranasal insufflation,
smoking, and ingestion. To our knowledge, transrectal administration
of methamphetamine has not been publicized in the medical
literature.
Objective: To report a unique case of methamphetamine toxicity
following a self-administered methamphetamine enema.
Case Report: A 29-year-old woman reported that she mixed between
one half to 1 gram of methamphetamine with warm water in
an oral syringe and instilled the contents into her rectum. Within
minutes, she became anxious and experienced restlessness, palpitations,
and tingling in her extremities. Paramedics were called, and
the patient was transported to the emergency department. The patient
weighed 81 kg; blood pressure was 226/160 mm Hg, pulse rate
was 130 beats/min, respirations were 28 breaths/min, and oral temperature
was 37.3 °C. Immediately after administration of 3 mg of
intravenous lorazepam, the patient's mental status and vital signs
improved. Results of electrocardiography, blood chemistries, and
complete blood count were normal; results of a urine toxicology
screen were positive for amphetamines and tetrahydrocannabinol.
She was admitted for observation and given a second dose of intravenous
lorazepam. Her symptoms resolved completely over the next
20 hours without sequelae.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
i watched a few of those def poetry shows. sometimes watching pure bullshit makes me happy. now i'm stuck with those pathetic monster movies on scifi where some big insect is killing the hell out of screwing teens.
 
"A poet needs a stage like a fish needs a bicycle"...or some such thingy...

If a poem must be recorded (& it doesn't need to be), it should be in an empty room alone. At best, Slam is lyrical performance art. Write down the words/remove the performance aspect & what do you have?
 
it's like a school. most of the slam poets sound the same as most preachers sound the same. the guy's pretentious with his melodramatic pauses and change of pace along with the little sound of his voice that seems to say, "jesus, my words are great." they are not great. and he looks like bin laden.
 
I'll give you the extra leg of me not being familiar with "slam poetry". But I found his words to be great, which I find to small of a word to describe his words.
I take it you're at least 35?
 
thank you

for basically eximplifying my problem with slam poetry.

I will say that there are some good lines in his poem and even a few glimpses of thought that I can connect with on one level or another, but he is doing nothing more than presenting an agenda. And he is so OBVIOUS about it.

What relevance does the title have with the actual poem itself? If this guy actually stopped TRYING to look like someone who would be racially profiled before a flight then his poetry would have no relevance.

This is exactly what I find sickening about it, there are hundreds of people listening to this guy bitch about how hard it is to be him. Rallying against injustices that he probably created for himself so as to appear artistic.

What's the message? Unless you are someone obviously targeted for injustices (real or imagined) don't write poetry because you have nothing worthwhile to share?
 
i think it's a dangerous thing to lump an entire group of people into one genre and then say the entire genre sucks.

it's too easy.

i'm not the hugest fan of slam poetry or 'spoken word' but it just seems sort of unintelligent to dismiss the relevance of all the poets who write this way.
 
plasteredpoet said:
What's the message? Unless you are someone obviously targeted for injustices (real or imagined) don't write poetry because you have nothing worthwhile to share?
Click to expand...

That sums it up nicely, plasteredpoet.

The Chicago Public Radio Station WBEZ recently profiled some young poets/teenagers who participated in the "Louder Than A Bomb" poetry series. Before hearing the entire program, I had heard one excerpt and was excited to hear more. Problem was, EVERY SINGLE KID SOUNDED LIKE THE NEXT. It was all rhythm and rhyme, cadence, volume, dynamics, and most of all, racial identity. These days, you can't be a misunderstood teenager unless you're Puerto Rican, African-American. etc.. They were careful to include a Jewish kid to insure "diversity".

But the good news is that poetry will cure all of society's racial problems ! Yay !
 
point taken

You're right about lumping them all together.

As I said, there are passages from various performances that I like. The main problem I see with it is what it has devolved into.

At it's inception there was some really interesting, entertaining stuff out there. I actually purchased a book of slam poetry verse years ago that contained a few real gems.

Ultimately it seems to have devolved into a droning chorus of malcontents stroking each other in a big circle and blasting "THE SYSTEM" whatever that is.

It seems that it has become more about the vanity of the speaker and less about the words that are being spoken
 
vodka said:
i think it's a dangerous thing to lump an entire group of people into one genre and then say the entire genre sucks.

it's too easy.
Click to expand...
the only thing it would take to expand these things would be for someone to come along and do it differently.
Click to expand...
But until someone does (don't hold your breath), I think the criticisms are valid. Based on what it is right now, which is a bunch of angst triggered by social awakening. Hey, there's nothing wrong with rediscovering everything. Every generation does it; "Wow, the world is such a fucked up place, why didn't anyone realize it before!"

The problem is, once you realize the same rediscovery goes on every 20 years, the relevance of the next generation's discovery of the things you discovered in the 80's, and the hippies discovered in the 60's, etc., etc., is minimal. Imagine a World War II veteran who waded onto a shitty beach somewhere knee deep in the blood of a hundred kids just like him, now it's 20 years later and you play him Bob Dylan's Masters of War. What's his reaction going to be? "Yeah, no shit, kid. By the way, learn to sing." This has been going on forever.

The slam/performance poetry is all the same, it has to be, there is a very strict format that it must follow. Is it an invalid form of art? No. Neither are pop or hip hop song lyrics. But both are ultimately disposable, unless you are at an age that will value them as nostalgia later down the road.

I only commented on informal's post because it infers that if you are over a certain age, you just don't get it. The point is, if you're over a certain age, you see it for what it is and discard it as irrelevant. Which is fine. It isn't being made for you.
 
speaking of which...i got my new NYQ the other day
i will let you know if any of the poetry is more interesting
than the editorial...
 
gotcha mjp.

i laughed a while back on Mary when someone had posted about emo that most of us were 'just too old to understand it the movement.'

i wonder what Bukowski would have thought of emo. laughing!!!
 
yah yah yah.

i don't think he would have ever called himself 'emo' though.

i'm going to write a poem and title it

'Bukowski buys a black hoodie'
 
laughing out loud!

$220.00 dollars???

let's make one for Father Luke for the laptop thread. all proceeds to to the cause.

Father Luke black hat. make a statement without saying anything.

flpingpong2.jpg


only $320.00
cotton polyester blend
 
mjp said:
He would have thought it was a pop culture fad, which it is. Or was. All those groovy pomo bohemians who created that pot of creamed corn have already moved on to other great new things that we don't know about yet. Meth enemas or kneecap piercing or something. You'll see.
Click to expand...


mmmmm....

Meth enemas.
 
This is a great thread.

First of all, the competitive aspect of Poetry Slams is nauseating and completely frat-boyish.
I'm not saying the poets are, just the vehicle being used to judge, grade, and ultimately determine what is a "bad" poem from a "good" one, seems a bit goofy and pedantic.

Second of all, the presentation/performances are usually so dramatically obnoxious and self-righteous that I feel like I'm watching Henry Rollins on speed reading Eminem lyrics, rolling out a litany of complaints about how bad his childhood was, and how he never received a letter from his father.

I've gone to a few poetry slams myself, when I was a teenager, and never felt a connection with any of the poets up there.
They seemed to be hogging the light, doing verbal gymnastics just to get a grade from the crowd, while spending too much time focusing on their physical delivery of the word, than focusing on the words themselves.

I suppose I'm a snob and bucking the current modern trend of poetry, but that's the way I feel, when it comes to Poetry Slams.

I think I would rather listen to someone reading poetry than having someone act it out.
It all boils down to the page vs. the stage.
 
First of all, the competitive aspect of Poetry Slams is nauseating and completely frat-boyish.
Click to expand...

all poetry, on a certain level especially a publication level, becomes competitive. everyone judges the works of other as bad or good, worthy or unworthy, likable or unlikable depending on how they personally define these things every time they read it. these people are just doing it more loudly.

They seemed to be hogging the light, doing verbal gymnastics just to get a grade from the crowd, while spending too much time focusing on their physical delivery of the word, than focusing on the words themselves.
Click to expand...

just about every reading/art gathering i've been to has had this feel to it regardless of whether or not it was specifically intended for 'slam'. everyone who is reading a piece is, in some way, acting it out. it's almost inevitable.

that being said, i will say once more that i am not fond of slam. i sincerely cannot watch it without ending up having too much to drink, becoming cynical and laughing into my hand enough that whoever i'm with usually ends up becoming embarrassed and i have to leave. i don't know why - it just gives me the giggles.

and that being said i feel the need to say that i don't think it's okay to completely disregard any form of art, even if it's making entire painting collections with semen and menstrual blood. (i.e.http://jeniferwills.wordpress.com/2008/10/11/theres-not-much-rage-in-a-lower-case-i/) that these people are making an attempt at making art which is relevant to them as cool as far as i'm concerned. just because i don't really get it or see it's relevance doesn't mean that it has none.

edit: it should be noted in this thread that there are many people who don't see the relevance of Bukowski's work. that should mean something here, i think.
 
Of course it's a highly competitive field, but I guess what I was trying to say is that it's really, unusually funny when you see the score cards shoot up after one delivers their poem, either giving them a 10 or 1. And yes, the slam poets are doing it loudlier than a "poet" sitting down in a cardigan at some mom and pop bookstore giving a reading.

Having the unfortunate experience of going to readings myself, I've noticed that poets, regardless of how biting or punchy the poems may be, ARE acting it out to some degree, it's just that slam poets tend to be THAT guy/girl in your drama class that never stopped acting when class was over, dramatizing the crime scene or rape scenario while screaming his/her lines.

Completely agree. This is an utterly different medium that they are working within, I just personally don't care for it. They're not a troupe of talentless baboons. It's quite electrically obvious to the most casual observer, that they staunchly believe in their art, and themselves, which is great.
Again, I'm not going to dismiss it with a wave of my hand, however, I'm going to say that I simply cannot connect with the thespian aesthetic as well as the way they write, or at least, most of them.

vodka said:
edit: it should be noted in this thread that there are many people who don't see the relevance of Bukowski's work. that should mean something here, i think.
Click to expand...
He had relevance? j/k
 
And another thing....

Vodka, you've hit upon something that I have an issue with. Art made of semen and blood. Wow. Let's all get one.

Here's my take on the whole art issue: I believe the national endowment for the arts giving grants to "ARTISTS" is a practice that should be done away with entirely.

I love art. Moreso than most people. I do not, however, believe in any publicly funded organization handing out money to someone simply to create art.

I like to believe Bukowski would agree to some extent. After all, the man truly suffered for his art, languishing in hell holes and grinding away at worthless jobs, suffereing to become a great artist. I believe he would feel that the "P.H.D. ARTISTS" would fall into the same ctegory as the "P.H.D. POETS" and we all know how much he loathed that crew.

I believe that the only thing that determines artistic value is the community into which the art is entered, and that's it. If you put a show together and sell nothing then your work is worthless to the art community. The problem is that so many "ARTISTS" that do this will turn around and demand a grant from the govt. Why? It's obvious the value of your work was seen as less than stellar, what makes you think you deserve funding?

If one wants to create art then it is upon his/her head to do something that connects, not the taxpayers.
 
plasteredpoet said:
I do not, however, believe in any publicly funded organization handing out money to someone simply to create art.

I like to believe Bukowski would agree to some extent.
Click to expand...
He applied for arts grants and got at least one, so you may have to rethink that.
 
A quote I've recently come across from reading Portions, the 1973 essay on being an "aged poet":

Most poets read badly. They are either too vain or too stupid. They read too low or too loud. And, of course, most of their poetry is bad. But the audience hardly notices. They are personality gazing. And they laugh at the wrong time and like the wrong poems for the wrong reasons. But bad poets create bad audiences; death brings more death. (p. 123)

Bukowski did readings because he was paid to do so. He wasn't intentionally competing although there's always the hecklers in the crowd. But they had paid as well to be there.

From the few slam youtube videos I've seen (and Vancouver, BC seems to be a slam kind of town) I'd say the readers and the audience are still on equal footing.
 
mjp said:
He applied for arts grants and got at least one, so you may have to rethink that.
Click to expand...
When did he apply?

I am a bit surprised by that, knowing his history with the government and his point of view with the environs of acadamia, not to mention general authority.

Most likely it was out there and He'd be a fool not to try for the free money, but that doesn't diminish the fact that it is a practice which I abhor.

Mainly due to the fact that a pig sliced in twain and preserved in fomaldehyde isn't something that requires talent. Nor is dropping a crucifix into a jar of piss. Both of these were acts of "art" committed with government funding. The artist figures" hey, I got paid, there is no reason for me to try and create anything with talent, I'll slap something together and call it social commentary.

"My Kid Could Paint That"

As soon as its out there someone with a degree in art will be there telling you that you are shallow if you don't emrace it, and that it is relevant for......(insert rationalization here)
 
plasteredpoet said:
"My Kid Could Paint That"
Click to expand...

That is exactly what my wife says when she sees the abstract Buk paintings....

Still, putting a crucifix in piss is art, it may not be to your liking, but it is art. So is putting a bukowski poem inside a bottle of beer.

It is nice to see the government spend a little on arts when they spend SOOOO much on war.

Anyone know what the total budget for the NEA is? I bet that it is a really painfully small amount with you look at the cost of the war, the debt of Sarah Palin's pork projects....

Bill
 
plasteredpoet said:
When did he apply?
Click to expand...
In 1974 he recieved $5,000 from the NEA to allow him time to work on a novel (of course he hadn't worked a "regular" job for a few years at the time, so the NEA application was likely creatively embellished). That's equivalent to getting a check for $20,000 today. A substantial piece of change.

Also, from a 1972 interview:

STONECLOUD: I gather you're sort of down on things like teaching positions, fellowships, prizes...

BUKOWSKI: I'll take them all! I have nothing against money that allows me time to write, but I've never applied. I was sitting around with some professors one night. Miller Williams and two others, and one of these guys gets a scholarship every year. He goes to a little island. He's a nice guy - a fair poet - maybe he deserves it. I'm sitting there drinking and I say "OK, goddamn you bastards, you get these things; all I want to ask is where do I get the form to fill out, at the corner drugstore, or where you buy a racing form? Where do you guys get these papers?" I really got in a fury, and they wouldn't answer me, they all looked at me. Then I said "Tell me, goddamnit Where do I get a paper to fill out?"

STONECLOUD: Well, you've got to have a Ph.D. or at least a master's degree.

BUKOWSKI: Oh shit, no wonder they wouldn't say! They were trying not to hurt my feelings.
 

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