Bukowski's funeral (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter james
- Start date
that story is about the wedding of John Thomas and Philomene Long, so i believe it's mostly true.
also, they also put out "bukowski in the bathtub", a decent little book on buk...
Lolita Twist
Rose-hustler
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Isn't John Thomas the poet whose kids are saying was an abusive slob abuser? Where is that thread?
mjp
Founding member
Sorry, this is almost off-topic now, but I found it in an old, stale browser tab, and lord knows, the world craves my wisdom, and I would hate to deprive it of one word, so here it is. Plus, looks like it took a long time to type, and I don't want to waste it. - Selah! (aka Ananda Osel)
That is one of the things that got in my way when I was spending an inordinate amount of time among Rastafarians, and trying to find a sympathetic common ground with them. Each one of them interpreted their way of life differently, many times in wildly contradictory ways.
If the only common tenet of your belief system is "be good," then I find your belief system sorely lacking. If it really makes you be good, then great. But I found that the people who walk it like they talk it, when it comes to any kind of supernatural belief system, are the exception to the rule.
"Bow to the statue of Buddha, Tommy."
"Why?"
"It's a sign of respect, and it will remind you to be kind and patient."
"How will it do that?"
"You must think about Buddha as you bow, and strive to be as he was."
"Can't I be kind and patient without bowing to Buddha?"
"Well...I suppose...I mean, no -- please, just stop asking stupid questions and bow already, so we can get out of here! We're late picking up your sister from dance class."
Replace Buddha with Jesus or any other mythical rock star and the conversation is the same. A lot of dark ages, I-am-not-worthy hocus pocus.
Why didn't Buddha or Jesus say anything about computers? Most of my problems stem from this box, yet no wisdom have they for me! What did Jesus think of this current economic situation? Surely he knew it was coming. Wonder why it's not in the bible. A lot of talk of oxen in there, not so much about cars. Weird, isn't it, that he would forsake our generation?
Buddha wants me to just sit around and think, which could be related to the 11.5% unemployment rate here in California...I think it is. Yeah, I'm sure it is! Woo! My only question is, when we are all as enlightened as Buddha and just sitting around thinking, who is going to grow the food that we need to have donated to us so that we can continue our enlightened path?
This is a conundrum indeed...it's hard to be pure and holy!
Then what does "The Lord Buddha" mean? That term is all over http://buddhanet.net/ (which is my new one-stop shop for all Buddha-related questions). The more I learn about Buddhist monks, the less respect I have for them, I have to say.
If it is everything, then it is nothing.
That is one of the things that got in my way when I was spending an inordinate amount of time among Rastafarians, and trying to find a sympathetic common ground with them. Each one of them interpreted their way of life differently, many times in wildly contradictory ways.
If the only common tenet of your belief system is "be good," then I find your belief system sorely lacking. If it really makes you be good, then great. But I found that the people who walk it like they talk it, when it comes to any kind of supernatural belief system, are the exception to the rule.
"Bow to the statue of Buddha, Tommy."
"Why?"
"It's a sign of respect, and it will remind you to be kind and patient."
"How will it do that?"
"You must think about Buddha as you bow, and strive to be as he was."
"Can't I be kind and patient without bowing to Buddha?"
"Well...I suppose...I mean, no -- please, just stop asking stupid questions and bow already, so we can get out of here! We're late picking up your sister from dance class."
Replace Buddha with Jesus or any other mythical rock star and the conversation is the same. A lot of dark ages, I-am-not-worthy hocus pocus.
Why didn't Buddha or Jesus say anything about computers? Most of my problems stem from this box, yet no wisdom have they for me! What did Jesus think of this current economic situation? Surely he knew it was coming. Wonder why it's not in the bible. A lot of talk of oxen in there, not so much about cars. Weird, isn't it, that he would forsake our generation?
Buddha wants me to just sit around and think, which could be related to the 11.5% unemployment rate here in California...I think it is. Yeah, I'm sure it is! Woo! My only question is, when we are all as enlightened as Buddha and just sitting around thinking, who is going to grow the food that we need to have donated to us so that we can continue our enlightened path?
This is a conundrum indeed...it's hard to be pure and holy!
Here
https://bukowskiforum.com/showthread.php?t=5363
I didn't finish 'Bukowski in the Bathtub' - it seems quite a bitter little book to me.
Considering the US's history with all things religious and all things taxation, that pretty much proves Buddhism is not a religion.
I agree with Slimedog, even if he does look like Emeril.
In an effort to seriously answer a somwhat sarcastic argument, it has largely to do with the translation of the more people-friendly Sanskrit texts for Western consumption as opposed to the original Pali texts that were more true to the original genesis of Buddhism.
True that there was a sense of deification of the Buddha, but more as one to be admired because he was one of us who saw through the bullshit, but not to the point of godhood; just respect for someone who was philosophically brilliant.
That's how I take it, anyway.
mjp
Founding member
Sorry, I find it difficult to avoid sarcasm when talking about religion. I could make the same points in a dull and uninteresting way, but that's no fun for anyone. Besides, sarcasm is usually the most exercise my brain gets.
But you know, with apologies to any Buddhist monks reading this, once you have sacred texts, rules, "truths" and enlightenment, you have a religion. That's kind of how the rest of us define things. I know we shouldn't seek to define you, but sometimes, for the sake of our own greater enlightenment, we have to.
I do as well, and maybe I'm disingenuous when I try to put Buddhism in the Philosophy compartment instead of the Religion compartment. Truth be told, I have attended Buddhist teachings and all that stuff, and I've seen attitudes that would make any Southern Baptist proud of the exclusive nature of their endeavor.
However, there is still something a bit more pure to me in the Eastern concept of "there's something to all of us; work at it and you'll see" as opposed to the Western "do whatever you want and then repent and it's cool" concept.
Beside that, Christian literature is drop dead boring, and Buddhist literature has its certain charm for me; that's all. Each to their own.
The minute you say "I believe" X, it is different from saying "I know" X. But how do you "know" what you "know" is actually "TRUE"? I'm afraid I'm not convinced the Scientists, the Philosophers, the Religionists or even the POETS have the last word on anything.
I think Quine and Wittgenstein and the logical positivists were basically trying to say that what passed for "philosophical" or "metaphysical" questions were really meaningless--they lay outside the proper realm of philosophy because they could not be "proved" or "disproved" using strict logic. So that would appreciably narrow the areas you could discuss in philosophy, thus the rise of British "analytic" philosophy which said--if I understand it correctly--that all these debates about religion and Buddhism and the "meaning of life" are strictly meaningless since these debates come down to a misunderstanding of the proper use of language.
Of course one is not completely happy with this because what then do we do with Love, Death, Freedom, God, Soul--all the BIG METAPHYSICAL QUESTIONS? Wittgenstein said we should pass over them in silence since we CAN'T KNOW. I guess that's sort of where I am.
I lived seven years in Texas so the best I can say is: "I FEEL IT IN MY HEART." DH Lawrence said I feel it in my solar plexus--if I feel it to be true, it's true for me. Of course this is a kind of lunacy, since obviously if you believe the moon is made of green cheese, that is unlikely to be true, but none of us would be interested in Bukowski if we weren't lunatics already.
Besides, I think that IS the answer: poetry, art, music--these things give us the meaning we seek. I vote for ART as ABOVE PHILOSOPHY and RELIGION.
Or we could go even further and jettison art too. Instead of arguing about Philosophy and Science and Buddhism and Art, let's get that button I've seen photos of Ferlinghetti wearing: "FUCK ART: LET'S DANCE." In other words, let's get rid of Art too. Like the end of ZORBA THE GREEK when ANthony quinn and Alan Bates dance on the Greek beach to the music of Theodorakis...Oh, we would have to get rid of the Theodorakis. Well, we could dance silently...
I think Quine and Wittgenstein and the logical positivists were basically trying to say that what passed for "philosophical" or "metaphysical" questions were really meaningless--they lay outside the proper realm of philosophy because they could not be "proved" or "disproved" using strict logic. So that would appreciably narrow the areas you could discuss in philosophy, thus the rise of British "analytic" philosophy which said--if I understand it correctly--that all these debates about religion and Buddhism and the "meaning of life" are strictly meaningless since these debates come down to a misunderstanding of the proper use of language.
Of course one is not completely happy with this because what then do we do with Love, Death, Freedom, God, Soul--all the BIG METAPHYSICAL QUESTIONS? Wittgenstein said we should pass over them in silence since we CAN'T KNOW. I guess that's sort of where I am.
I lived seven years in Texas so the best I can say is: "I FEEL IT IN MY HEART." DH Lawrence said I feel it in my solar plexus--if I feel it to be true, it's true for me. Of course this is a kind of lunacy, since obviously if you believe the moon is made of green cheese, that is unlikely to be true, but none of us would be interested in Bukowski if we weren't lunatics already.
Besides, I think that IS the answer: poetry, art, music--these things give us the meaning we seek. I vote for ART as ABOVE PHILOSOPHY and RELIGION.
Or we could go even further and jettison art too. Instead of arguing about Philosophy and Science and Buddhism and Art, let's get that button I've seen photos of Ferlinghetti wearing: "FUCK ART: LET'S DANCE." In other words, let's get rid of Art too. Like the end of ZORBA THE GREEK when ANthony quinn and Alan Bates dance on the Greek beach to the music of Theodorakis...Oh, we would have to get rid of the Theodorakis. Well, we could dance silently...
I'm not an expert on Buddhism but I have read about it a bit and I welcome any correction but from what we consider "religion" in the western world has little in common with Buddhism. Examples-
Does not believe that the world was created or ruled by a God
Does not believe in evil or a devil or punishment for "sins"
Does not belive in a reward for good deads
Does not belive in "salvation" by joining them
Seems like all the other religions have these so I vote for them getting kicked for not playing by the rules.
Does not believe that the world was created or ruled by a God
Does not believe in evil or a devil or punishment for "sins"
Does not belive in a reward for good deads
Does not belive in "salvation" by joining them
Seems like all the other religions have these so I vote for them getting kicked for not playing by the rules.
cirerita
Founding member
Nice ''translation'' of the oft-quoted "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen" ;)
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mjp
Founding member
Those are negative aspects of many religions for sure, but none of them are part of the definition of religion. Which is why I keep saying that while Buddhism may be "better" than some other religions (for the reasons that have been pointed out), that doesn't make it any more valid than the others.
When I point out the magical thinking and supernatural beliefs that make Buddhism just like every other religion and cult on earth, someone says, "Well, some Buddhists believe that." Okay. Some believe it. But if that's the case, then it's part of the religion, right? If not, you are saying there is a right way and a wrong way to be a Buddhist.
Everyone is seeking answers. But these religions don't give you anything that you don't already have. If Buddhism rings true to you, couldn't that suggest that you are predisposed to agree with or abide by its basic ideas? That you were already "good" before you ever heard of Buddhism? The group or title or rituals only reinforce what you already believe.
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
David says it best or points out how others have said it.
This thread reminds me of the 'What is Art' thread. It seems to boil down to a personal definition and I must say there are some fine examples of how to define it in this thread. Many of you have touched on it before and it has helped to define you to a point IMHO. That is a good thing. Although some people seem to joke about it, a little, they make a strong point. It is widely evident that there are some crazy fanatics and people who flat out exploit religion for various reasons to the goal of personal gain and that is very wrong. Oh, that's right there may be no wrong.
This thread reminds me of the 'What is Art' thread. It seems to boil down to a personal definition and I must say there are some fine examples of how to define it in this thread. Many of you have touched on it before and it has helped to define you to a point IMHO. That is a good thing. Although some people seem to joke about it, a little, they make a strong point. It is widely evident that there are some crazy fanatics and people who flat out exploit religion for various reasons to the goal of personal gain and that is very wrong. Oh, that's right there may be no wrong.
Any this whole time I thought John Fante was God...
Along these same lines, wasn't it Bill Hicks that pointed out that the bible says nothing about dinosaurs, which you know...is actually provable...Or was it Doug Stanhope. I forget.
Religion exists because people are afraid to die. If we found a way to live forever, there would be no use for God or Buddha or whatever you call it.
The only time I feel religious is when I'm about to get on a plane. It's a foolish concept, fear is my only motivation. I feel like I have no control when I'm going 500mph in a bus with wings so I look to some supernatural intervention that I've been taught has control over everything. As soon as I hit the ground, I'm back to reality.
Along these same lines, wasn't it Bill Hicks that pointed out that the bible says nothing about dinosaurs, which you know...is actually provable...Or was it Doug Stanhope. I forget.
Religion exists because people are afraid to die. If we found a way to live forever, there would be no use for God or Buddha or whatever you call it.
The only time I feel religious is when I'm about to get on a plane. It's a foolish concept, fear is my only motivation. I feel like I have no control when I'm going 500mph in a bus with wings so I look to some supernatural intervention that I've been taught has control over everything. As soon as I hit the ground, I'm back to reality.
Snowball Fight
You move like a giant, ancient fish...
So that's like...
"I swear there ain't no heaven, but I pray there ain't no hell"...
(Blood, Sweat and Tears)
I recommend all of you read "god is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens. It'll probably answer most of what is being discussed.
Regarding the joke about the buddhist monk who buys a hotdog, you left out the ending. When the monk pays and asks for his change, the vendor says "change comes from within".
Regarding the joke about the buddhist monk who buys a hotdog, you left out the ending. When the monk pays and asks for his change, the vendor says "change comes from within".
LickTheStar
Sad Flower in the Sand
I think its been said in the thread already... but funerals and\or any kind of celebration of someone's life\death are always for the living, not the dead... Which is one of several reasons why my grandfather never had a viking funeral on the Stockbridge Bowl... Though part of my would still love to make it happen...
I remember thinking it odd that Bukowski had monks at his funeral when I first read Uncle Howie's bio, but... well it doesn't really bug me too much. I dunno, people can fuck around at my funeral all they want. After all, I'll be too dead to give a shit.
Well the Pope lives in Italy, is infallible... I'd say there's a distinct possibility... but I may be biased...
I remember thinking it odd that Bukowski had monks at his funeral when I first read Uncle Howie's bio, but... well it doesn't really bug me too much. I dunno, people can fuck around at my funeral all they want. After all, I'll be too dead to give a shit.
Well the Pope lives in Italy, is infallible... I'd say there's a distinct possibility... but I may be biased...
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
I think funerals can sometimes be for the dead too. Often the person who's going to die has some specific wishes for his funeral (a specific song to be played, or his ashes dropped into the sea or whatever) and most of the time the family fulfill those wishes even if they're not their cup of tea.
That said, I'm not sure Buk had asked for a Buddhist funeral though. I can see him being interested in Buddhism, but not as a Buddhist as such or anything else for that matter...
That said, I'm not sure Buk had asked for a Buddhist funeral though. I can see him being interested in Buddhism, but not as a Buddhist as such or anything else for that matter...
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Does anyone know if Buk arrange for his funeral to be that way>? I know Linda was very much into spirituality and buddhist way to life, perhaps she was the main force behind it? She encouraged buk ?
Mind you, Bukowski always had a fasincation with buddhists.
'I have seen the red rose burning
and this means more.'
Mind you, Bukowski always had a fasincation with buddhists.
'I have seen the red rose burning
and this means more.'
hey genius, try reading the thread...oh, i guess you're too busy squeezing your orange and setting all the 'hero worshippers' straight.
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Thank you, :DI needed a good laugh this morning. Olaf is okay, most of the time:rolleyes:.
Check out Olaf's comments in the Colin Will thread and you'll find it.
Noticed a biography of Sean Penn in a book shop this week and decided to sift through it and read all the pages mentioning Bukowski and I managed to find out a little bit more information about his 'end time'.
As many here will know when bukowski was diagnosed with Luke-keem-ia, he gave up drinking and smoking, then he actively decided to take part in meditation, he actively sought it with Linda. It done him some good, so it claims, gave him some peace and helped him in general. So I think the Buddhist monks may seem incongruous to his general sensibility, but in reality, Bukowski was not one to shun the possibility of something transcending the apparent everyday nothingness. So, I don't quite think Linda simply hijacked the funeral (not that it was ever claimed) but that Bukowski wanted it as part of the celebration of his life.
I'll tell you what but there is nothing more depressing than a tombstone. In fact, there are entire libraries filled with shelves of tombstones. But it's so fucking good to read Bukowski and KNOW that a life that has past still has the ability to set fire to peoples minds and ideas and perspectives.
There is some life in the dead yet.
As many here will know when bukowski was diagnosed with Luke-keem-ia, he gave up drinking and smoking, then he actively decided to take part in meditation, he actively sought it with Linda. It done him some good, so it claims, gave him some peace and helped him in general. So I think the Buddhist monks may seem incongruous to his general sensibility, but in reality, Bukowski was not one to shun the possibility of something transcending the apparent everyday nothingness. So, I don't quite think Linda simply hijacked the funeral (not that it was ever claimed) but that Bukowski wanted it as part of the celebration of his life.
I'll tell you what but there is nothing more depressing than a tombstone. In fact, there are entire libraries filled with shelves of tombstones. But it's so fucking good to read Bukowski and KNOW that a life that has past still has the ability to set fire to peoples minds and ideas and perspectives.
There is some life in the dead yet.
mjp
Founding member
Right. According to a biography of Sean Penn. Okay. I guess it doesn't get any more authoritative than that.
Oh, no doubt! And he also loved ice cream sundaes, long walks on the beach and sticking his tongue up stray cat's assholes. I read that in a book about Madonna.
Perhaps a bit late in the game, here's a quote from Gerald Locklin (from page 66 of his "CB: a Sure Bet") on the funeral:
"The religious rites are conducted by a trio of Buddhist monks, with a great deal of chanting and bowing. I figure this is Linda's preference, that Bukowski wouldn't have cared one way or the other, except that he would have wanted her to have things however she wanted them. Later, though, she will tell me that Bukowski actually became very interested in Buddhism near the end, even to the extent of receiving his own mantra and practicing meditation. Apparently the notion of purification held some appeal for him. [...]"
This is something from someone who was there ... much can be written/said about this sort of thing and the whole conversation will go around in circles ... it's one thing for someone to say (in general) that the deal person would want the survivor to do what she/he wants ... however, surely the flip side should also come into consideration: what would the dead person have wanted? Personally, I have heard of (or actually attended) a few too many ceremonies that were outright offenses to the beliefs of those who had died ...
Also, for many, the ceremony (in whatever form it takes) marking a person's death is the one time when she/he gets to be honoured (Bukowski was famous ... others are famous ... they have already been honoured and continue to be so) ... the rest of us don't often get the recognition of having "been here" ... while it clearly won't really matter to me, I would hope that whatever is done upon my death (at the moment I want no ceremony of any sort) will not dishonour my time on this planet in this life form ... to some extent, when I see the picture of the three Buddhists, I sense that all was not completely right ... I have a gut feeling that Linda did not really honour CB's overall views on this matter ... but I wasn't there (in the final days or otherwise). DaP
"The religious rites are conducted by a trio of Buddhist monks, with a great deal of chanting and bowing. I figure this is Linda's preference, that Bukowski wouldn't have cared one way or the other, except that he would have wanted her to have things however she wanted them. Later, though, she will tell me that Bukowski actually became very interested in Buddhism near the end, even to the extent of receiving his own mantra and practicing meditation. Apparently the notion of purification held some appeal for him. [...]"
This is something from someone who was there ... much can be written/said about this sort of thing and the whole conversation will go around in circles ... it's one thing for someone to say (in general) that the deal person would want the survivor to do what she/he wants ... however, surely the flip side should also come into consideration: what would the dead person have wanted? Personally, I have heard of (or actually attended) a few too many ceremonies that were outright offenses to the beliefs of those who had died ...
Also, for many, the ceremony (in whatever form it takes) marking a person's death is the one time when she/he gets to be honoured (Bukowski was famous ... others are famous ... they have already been honoured and continue to be so) ... the rest of us don't often get the recognition of having "been here" ... while it clearly won't really matter to me, I would hope that whatever is done upon my death (at the moment I want no ceremony of any sort) will not dishonour my time on this planet in this life form ... to some extent, when I see the picture of the three Buddhists, I sense that all was not completely right ... I have a gut feeling that Linda did not really honour CB's overall views on this matter ... but I wasn't there (in the final days or otherwise). DaP
Just read that thread. One thing that stands out for me is: what's wrong with insulting the Queen? :D
Here's a short quote from a new 2010 Gerald Locklin novel (*The Dodger's Retirement Party*), from page 18 (the fictional setting is Claire's funeral):
"And finally the priest took the pulpit to say a few words. As was so frequently the case nowadays -- like the Buddhist monks at the funeral of Charles Bukowski -- he had to admit he hadn't really known Claire all that well. But at the previous night's gathering [...] he had been assured that she was the most generous of souls [...]"
It's a short remark but it strikes a chord with me -- about far too many funerals. DaP
"And finally the priest took the pulpit to say a few words. As was so frequently the case nowadays -- like the Buddhist monks at the funeral of Charles Bukowski -- he had to admit he hadn't really known Claire all that well. But at the previous night's gathering [...] he had been assured that she was the most generous of souls [...]"
It's a short remark but it strikes a chord with me -- about far too many funerals. DaP
In the early seventies Carl came across Charles Bukowski's work, became his German agent, translator, & confidant. In the tv interview below (unhappily only understandable to german-speakers) he tells the wild story of Buk's funeral "” worth hearing
The story is not so wild...you don't miss anything.
The story is not so wild...you don't miss anything.
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Thanks Ponder. I'll cancel my German lessons then.
