Jazz music (1 Viewer)

In perusing the site I saw the Freddie Hubbard thread. Nice to see some jazz listeners here. Buk didn't seem to really care for jazz though he sang show tunes with the Crotty's and the standard Mean to Me is mentioned by a chick[cupcakes?] in the Hackford clips shown in Born into this.
 
I really dig the film: "Let's Get Lost" about Chet Baker. Not sure about Sir Charles, but "Lost" is worth watching, if you haven't already...and groove on jazz...and tragedies...
 

hoochmonkey9

Art should be its own hammer.
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I'm a jazz fan.

Bukowski wasn't, but apart from Mean To Me, he liked another jazz standard, some talk of it here, and some talk of Buk and his possible thoughts on jazz here.
 
From 1994 - 1999 I played (i.e., listening and playing upright bass) almost exclusively jazz (some classical in there too). Mingus, Monk, 'Trane, Dolphy, Blue Mitchell, Chet Baker, Wynton Kelly, all that stuff. It sustained me.
 
Cool guys, I'm a player too. Even play a bit of guitar :) Couldn't resist.
Kidding aside I am a jazz guitar player [among other things]
 
I wasn't into jazz at all until I read Kerouac and listened to some of the stuff he mentions and I suppose I tried to listen to it with his ear, as it were, and got to like some of it. I don't seek out jazz on the radio or CD, but I play the soundtrack from The Subterraneans occasionally and I have a few other jazz CDs.
 

Gerard K H Love

Appreciate your friends
I really like Jazz but it helps to be stoned when you listen to it.
It seems to me there have been several discussions about Bukowski and Jazz. He liked Classical music and if you read his stuff you would know that. Unless you are very stoned which is par for a Jazz fan.
 

mjp

Founding member
Saying you like "Jazz" is like saying you like "Rock." It doesn't really mean anything. There are too many variations. Big band music from the 40's makes me smile, those guys were cool. Watch them play (or watch films of the playing), they were having a ball. And they swing, baby!

Modern jazz makes me weep for the self-important pretention of it all. Like a bunch of art school kids standing around congratulating each other, giddy over the utterly horrible and useless shit they've produced.

(I have been writing a memoir of sorts, so I will take this opportunity to bore you with a story I recently remembered and wrote down.)

Thursday, February 11, 1982 I was on tour with a punk band and we played some nondescript tiny shithole in Lansing Michigan. For some sadistic reason, the owner of the venue had given the opening slot to a band called Judy's Tiny Head. When I saw that on the poster I thought, "That's a funny name, they must be cool."

But who walked in but three JazzRockProgFiveStringBass kinda pudgy junior professor looking types. Well, still, so far, so good. We played with plenty of really weird looking fuckers, and they usually turned out to be great people.

So JTH sets up, spends 20 or thirty minutes tweaking their expensive amps with little lamps on top of them (you know, so they can see the knobs when the stadium is dark), and then they looked at each other and smiled and began to play the most laughably ridiculous plunky herky jerky broken wagon wheel kind of "It's been three bars, change the time signature again!" bullshit I'd ever heard.

Which is fair enough. But they did this thing - I've never seen anything quite like it since - where one of them would tear up a tasty little diddly bit that used all the notes on the instrument, and when he was done, they would all look at each other and break out into huge smiles, sometimes laughing because they were so awesome.

The rational part of me said, just leave and come back later, do your thing and get out of here. It's only Lansing, Michigan, maybe this is how they do things here. But the 21 year old in me wanted to pick up the napkin holders off the tables and sail them at the band. As was often the case in those days, the 21 year old part of me won out, so I ran from table to table flinging those shiny metal napkin holders at the stage. I was aiming for the instruments, to try to disable them somehow, but I never quite hit the mark.

Eventually a couple of guys who were considerably larger than me dragged me out the back door and were about to crack my skull when the rest of my band casually meandered out and convinced them that I was not just a random troublemaker. I was actually in the band.

And all that when I wasn't even drinking! ;) Next time I'll tell you the fascinatingly similar story of throwing beer bottles at the Pretenders in a Minneapolis bar, a couple of years before the napkin holder incident. In my defense, I was drinking heavily at that time.
 

Gerard K H Love

Appreciate your friends
I like Jazz because I have an above average capacity to enjoy the art of it.;)

You know that was a nice story and everything you said about how broad the definitions of Jazz and Rock was correct, but throwing bottles at the Pretenders?

Drunk or not, there must be other issues at play internally there. Did they throw you out of that Minneapolis bar and did anyone defend you? That must have been a beating to the soul.
Yes Jazz is too big to define. Classical music would be easier.
 

hank solo

Just practicin' steps and keepin' outta the fights
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Wow - awesome picture in picture effects. Is that hip hop? I'm sure he just described himself as a 'bad cat'.

Are the eighties coming back over in the States too?
 
"It's been three bars, change the time signature again!" bullshit I'd ever heard.

I wrote one of the tunes coming out on my band's latest recording, and it starts in 4, has a break in 6, back to 4, then a section in 7, the guitar solo in 13, back to 7, and then back to 4. But it's not jazz, and the sections are each longer than three bars. :D

I enjoy the mathematics of music, and I don't believe that use of them necessitates a destruction of the emotional part of music. It simply involves use of both halves of one's brain simultaneously.
 

hoochmonkey9

Art should be its own hammer.
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well, if it was real jazz, the drummer would make the napkin dispensers part of his kit. ;)

would.
 
Well, I can only applaud MJP's actions. Because SOMEONE should always be that person. Theres usually only one. I did it against Hugh Masakela at Dingwalls in London...because he was being boring (My Bloody Valentine had opened up and I had way too many Newcastle Browns). Anyhow, I got tossed-out and the show was enjoyed by all.
 
It's funny that when someone criticises a certain genre of music it somehow devalues it to some people. Or attempts to do so. Perhaps it's a weakness of character on one side or another. Perhaps my hatred of certain genres of music are not as brutal as I once thought they were.

I'd certainly rather hear a band do multiple time changes though expensive amps than listen to some band play a shitty punk line, out of tune, no less, and see drool on their chins, fighting an infection in their scrotum-piercing, whilst they masturbate over the instruments they've stolen from real musicians as they rot in their hands.

But that's just me. And I am a bit sensitive to certain things. And I no longer have a scrotum infection (to my knowledge). :D
 

mjp

Founding member
not this ?
No. Through I would have thrown stuff at that band too.

...but throwing bottles at the Pretenders?
I'm not proud of throwing beer bottles at the Pretenders. I loved the Pretenders. But then I did a lot of things I am not proud of in 1980.

Yes, I was escorted from that venue as well (First Avenue) by a couple of beefy thugs. No one was around to help me, I think they were all tired of that by then, so I was on my own. Plus it was our drummer's birthday, so they were probably all busy doing something festive.

I'd certainly rather hear a band do multiple time changes though expensive amps than listen to some band play a shitty punk line, out of tune, no less, and see drool on their chins, fighting an infection in their scrotum-piercing, whilst they masturbate over the instruments they've stolen from real musicians as they rot in their hands.
You generalize about punk as much as (or more than) I generalize about meandering hippie noodle music, so glass houses and all that.

I can tell you that when we toured - in fact any time we played - we were ready to play a set at the drop of a hat. Day, night, morning, whatever was called for. Were rehearsed constantly and were always ready and always in tune. You know, 99% of the time.

I don't criticize anything in order to devalue it. I criticize it because I don't like it. Which is meaningless outside my own head.
 
I suppose your vehemence, re: your criticism connotes denegration. I'm quite good at generalizing, as it's easy. But when I criticized Prince, you were quick to remind me how many successful tunes he had composed. I can't, in good conciousness, say he isn't talented, but when I say I can't stand his music, I am true to that. I have a huge category in my brain of very talented musicians that I can't stand.

And my devaluation comment was about my perception; not your intent.

I'm nobody; but I have ears. And as a consumer, not as a musician, I know what I like. As a musician who crawled through the pretentious slop that is the Boston R&R music scene for too many years (that would be about 2 the first time - and 2 too many); plus some recently, I prefer the jazz and classical scene. At least the assholes there bathe occasionally, and refer to rehearsal as "rehearsal," not "practice."
 

Gerard K H Love

Appreciate your friends
This is like high quality therapy. I feel so alive now.

I like the elevator music style of Jazz best. Peter White, Boney James, Dave Koz, Dave , and Joyce Cooling.
Yes but only the most meaningful noodling that fits the mood. In fact in my heaven there is Jazz piped in, but with no time.( another thread)

late update: I love it when Purple Stick gets passionate. But we all know we are all right in our own minds.
 

ROC

It is what it is
You generalize about punk as much as (or more than) I generalize about meandering hippie noodle music, so glass houses and all that.

No, you generalise more, I think.

Jazz has ceased to be a useful word when discussing contemporary improvised music. There is just too much going on under the cover-all label of Jazz, that to speak of Jazz simply ends up in multiple separate conversations.

I could be wrong (more than likely) but I thought Punk was a more unified or consistent endeavour when it came to its expression in music. No?

Anyway... hippie noodlers deserve all the derision they get. I admire craft and soul (in some magically perfect ratio) and I hear it some improvised music, some classical music and some more popular forms of music (rock, reggae, ska, hell even country) but I can't recall hearing it in Punk.

Maybe you could point me in the right direction. I'd like to hear what is considered good Punk music. (Or is it more concerned with the sociological than the musical?)
 

mjp

Founding member
I suppose your vehemence, re: your criticism connotes denegration.
Fair enough. I get wound up about things, it's my nature.
I have a huge category in my brain of very talented musicians that I can't stand.
I suppose we all do.
I prefer the jazz and classical scene. At least the assholes there bathe occasionally, and refer to rehearsal as "rehearsal," not "practice."
Ha - good point. I think we quit "practising" when we were about 15 and rehearsed after that. But you do still hear grown people talking about going to "practice." Thanks for reminding me, I can steal that now.

No, you generalise more, I think.
I thought that was part of my charm?!

There is just too much going on under the cover-all label of Jazz, that to speak of Jazz simply ends up in multiple separate conversations.

I could be wrong (more than likely) but I thought Punk was a more unified or consistent endeavour when it came to its expression in music. No?
No. That's the point that I (and Purple Stickpin) have been trying to make for weeks around here.

The RECORDING INDUSTRY and the media pigeonholed punk, the musicians did not do that.

Go dig out an old CBGB's ad from the Village Voice archives - in one night they'd have Talking Heads, Blondie, the Ramones, the Brats, Jonathan Richman...those groups are all over the place and that club was ground zero for punk.

The Sex Pistols album sounds nothing like the Ramones album. Yet when the Sex Pistols came to America and and made headlines for bleeding and spitting on people (who wantd to be bled and spat upon), suddenly the Ramones couldn't get a booking. Because they were "punk." Just like the Sex Pistols. But absolutely nothing like the Pistols. Make sense? It didn't at the time either.

So blame the UK and their propensity for ruining everything that is good.

But really, you asked for direction, so go listen to London Calling or Sandinista. The third and fourth Clash albums. Then try to define punk. When the Clash branched out beyond Ramones-type music they made a point of continuing to call themselves a punk band at every opportunity. They were perhaps the punk band, because they lived out the attitude definition and ignored any media-imposed musical definition.

Great punk music is protest music, if you have to define it. It has more in common with Peter Tosh (who sang, "I don't want no peace, I need equal rights" long before the people of Los Angeles chanted it in the streets in 1992) and Woodie Guthrie than a bunch of clowns thrashing about with three chords and leather jackets.
 

mjp

Founding member
We played with James Chance and the Contortions back in '80 or '81 and I'm pretty sure you could call that punk jazz (if you had to classify it). All that NO WAVE/NO NEW YORK noise stuff was reaching its peak at the time.
 
I really dig listening to Bird, Yardbird, Zoizeau. Whatever you want to call him. With a nice bordeaux, while reading some Kerouac. One thing I dig about jazz it that you can't fake it, unlike rock. You either got it or you don't. I guess one could say that about poetry, too.
 
We played with James Chance and the Contortions back in '80 or '81 and I'm pretty sure you could call that punk jazz (if you had to classify it). All that NO WAVE/NO NEW YORK noise stuff was reaching its peak at the time.

That's who I thought of first when I saw punk jazz (and by the I think Gerard Love is punk jazz). But really they were funk-punk-jazz?

I heard some naughty stories about that band, MJP (who I think, is Sea Chanteys salsa) what were you're dealings with that band?
 

mjp

Founding member
I heard some naughty stories about that band, MJP (who I think, is Sea Chanteys salsa) what were you're dealings with that band?
My dealings with them were minimal. We opened for them somewhere in Chicago, so maybe they were on good behavior being away from home. But really didn't speak to them much except about gear geek shit ("Is that an Electro Harmonix flanger? Where the hell did you get it?!"). Mr. Chance was extremely normal, calm and friendly. Until he got on stage and started slapping himself and hitting cymbals with his forehead...

Sometimes - most times - the other bands we played with were cool (with one notable exception), whether we were opening or they were. It was like we were all in the same music industry garbage can, no one was making any money, so we might as well have a laugh.
 
I'm a big jazz fan. I go all the way back. I have hundreds of old 78rpm recordings and I particularly like British 1930's dance hall jazz bands and Duke Ellington.

And of course I like the classics - Miles, Coltrane, Ella, Monk and all those guys. Some of the west coast stuff (Chet, Brubeck, etc), too.

I'm currently listening to a lot of ECM stuff. I saw Dave Holland the other night and I'm really into Eberhard Weber. Totally underrated, but his albums of the 70's are incredible.
 

mjp

Founding member
Wouldn't the big band/dancehall jazz be the "classics" and all those meandering heroin space noodlers the brash upstarts - the punks of jazz? Or maybe Dixieland would be classic jazz...I don't know. I think all that stuff is kinda punk. It's real "fuck you, this is how we're going to do it" music (especially the space noodlers), so I respect that.

I guess "classic" doesn't mean first. If it did, "classic rock" radio stations would be playing old blues singers.
 
The term "classic jazz" may derive partly from our friends in the music industry. Many of the smaller and medium-sized old 1950's jazz labels like Contemporary, Riverside, Debut and Prestige were lumped together under the title of Original Jazz Classics.

This aside, I would consider Monk, Mingus, Coltrane, Miles, et al. to be "classic." Miles was also quite punk. Often played with his back to the audience.

Monk too. There's a rather funny (to me) scene in Straight, No Chaser where Charlie Rouse is asking Monk if he wants a b9, a #9 or a natural 9 over a particular chord, and Monk says something like "it doesn't matter; any one of 'em."

Mingus allegedly once ripped the front door off the Village Vanguard and threw it down the stairs at the owner because he wouldn't give Mingus an advance to play the club.

When Coltrane kicked the junk in 1957, he started drinking wine and milk, which is actually just rather messed up as opposed to punk.
 

hoochmonkey9

Art should be its own hammer.
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Miles was definitely punk.

he would also wander offstage when other muscians were taking solos.

although, I was a bit surprised in 1990 when I saw him at Newport. he was friendly and affable. he would pause at the front of the stage and "pose" for pics even though cameras were not really allowed during his show.

at one point, a plane was flying overhead at a low altitude making a fair bit of noise and Miles kept playing while taking a hand off the trumpet to wave at the airplane. when the same thing happenned to Gerry Mulligan earlier in ther day, Mulligan stopped playing and glared at the plane. oddly, the plane payed no attention to him.
 

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