The novel form - chapter lengths (1 Viewer)

[Johannes]

As we all know, one remarkable aspect of B.'s novels (beside of the content, of course) are the short or very short chapters in which it's written. Sometimes only half a page or later (in "Pulp" for example) only two or three sentences.

I remeber reading somewhere in "Screams from the Balcony" that he wanted them to be short for "shooting out and hitting like bullets" or something. Which works, at least for me.

But then I also remember reading in Sounes'that he took this idea of style from John Fante for "keeping the reader awake while trying to get to what he'd wanted to say". Sounes also writes that B. even first felt uneasy meeting Fante in the hospital at the end of his (Fantes) life, because of this takeover of style.

Now my problem is: I've read "Wait until spring, Bandini" and "Ask the dust", both in german translation and in both books the chapter-lengths aren't short at all. They are not long also. They seem to me, from feeling, pretty average chapter lengths and not at all exceptional.

Now I'm wondering: Is it the translation? But then, why would they change chapter-lenghts? I've never read Fante in original (hard to get here) but plan in doing so. Can any Fante-reader on this forum please tell me if his chapters are that short?

And if not, how did Sounes get that idea?

 

[Bukfan]

I only have the danish translation of "Ask the dust" and I've looked at the first 6 chapters. They are all 6-7 pages long and chapter 6 is only 3 pages long. Later on there are chapters 10-14 pages long. I t seems like some chapters are very short like Buk's and some are of more average lenght.
I don't know the lenght of the chapters in english but I'm sure someone in the forum can tell us that...

 

[bright]

well,i dont give much on the outside form of their chapters,but i have read "ask the Dust" in english(i am halfGreek/halfKraut),its fairly easy,plain language and yes,it all feels quite similar,though fante tends to make longer sentences than buk and talks a little bit too much bout catholicism.
But the language is pretty much straight forward,action packed and humorous.
Also his point of view is the same,he writes about a poor outsider whos trying to make it through writing...while working in a Canning Factory.
But the passage,from his childhood i think, bout the crabKing...a wonderful parable.

read ya.

 

[Bobby D]

Hey Johannes,

Guess there's not much interest in the post. However, I have also been taken hold of by the short chapters...and it would be interesting to compare the German to the original. I have read a number of books (particularly Hermann Hesse and Franz Kafka) that include the German and English in the same book, with the translation on facing pages for an easy comparison...in almost all cases there seem to be mis-translations or blatant errors. Some have been so poorly translated that a new story emerges :-)

Anyway back to the short chapters...I don't know Bukowski's source, but I would suggest reading Grimmelshausen's "Der abendteuerliche Simplicissimus" (Simplicius Simplicissimus: The Adventures of a Simpleton) from around 1668. Especially for you Johannes, a native German speaker. This is the first book I read with short chapters, and it's very impressive. Very 'droll' with some belly laughs mixed in (and that's saying a lot for a book written after the 30 Years' War).

Anyway, for anyone interested in a real classic, read Simplicissimus...the book is written in the spirit of a naive Candide or Mork from Ork..and write back to me when you find out the meaning "shooting the fox". Grimmelshausen could have been a 17th Century Chinaski for all I know...

That is all...viel Spass noch beim Lesen

BD

 

[bright]

Hi Bobby.
So,you probably followed hermanns advice to read simplicissimus, just like i did.
And youre right,its a marvelous book,full of 17th centuryReality and subtile humor.
Its mostly autobiographic.
This book can really give you a feeling for the past.
From where we come and how little has changed on the inside.

 

[Johannes]

Thanks for your opinions.

I still wonder about the Fante-connection. Translations are difficult, we all know that. But to change the chapter-form? What for? Why? And the short chapters are, regarding the novel-form, verrry recognizeable as Bukowski, aren't they? There are even (post)modern writers now, let's call it "so verrry inspired" by that, that they use it quite similar, for example the Italian Giuseppe Culicchia who claims Bukowski as a major influence.

Anyhow, the "Simplicissimus" is quite familiar in the german-speaking-sector. I haven't read it yet and also didn't know, that it's in short chapters. Interesting. Thanks for the advice.

Regarding the german literature another Master of short-chaptering was Friedrich Nietzsche. He wrote something like: "I want to say in ten sencences what others say in whole books - what others don't say in whole books" -- and he did.

From poems and letters (and the foreword of "Ask the Dust"?!) I remember that B. also read and appreciated Nietzsche in his early twenties. Who, of course, hardly wrote prose or if, then interwoven with all possible kinds of diffrent styles of writing.

But who knows?

 

[Olaf]

All valid observations Johannes. They all make perfect sense. I am intrigued why no one has wrote an essay on Bukowski and Nietzsche...although they are very different people...Bukowski learned a lot from reading Nietzsche and embodied some of the characteristics, at least in writing, that Nietzsche seen as integral to 'better men over man'.

Regarding the short chapters - this technique has been used since writing began: exampls: The Bible, Alasdair Gray, Laurence Sterne, and many others. What can be said generally about this style of writing is that uit has always been at the finges of literature, in the experimental, the differing angle.

In hindsight, Bukowski came from a long literary heritage...albiet an obscure one.

 

[poptop]

Organically Grown

....But then I also remember reading in Sounes'that he took this idea of style from John Fante for "keeping the reader awake while trying to get to what he'd wanted to say". Sounes also writes that B. even first felt uneasy meeting Fante in the hospital at the end of his (Fantes) life, because of this takeover of style.

"Takeover of style"? Not exactly, but definitely that Bukowski was interested in Fante's flowing line with both its emotion and vitality. Fante was writing like a man in the act of great enjoyment as he tap tap tapped it out on the typer, and that gave it an immediacy and aliveness that Bukowski had been looking for but hadn't run into before.

Now my problem is: I've read "Wait until spring, Bandini" and "Ask the dust", both in german translation and in both books the chapter-lengths aren't short at all. They are not long also. They seem to me, from feeling, pretty average chapter lengths and not at all exceptional.

I think so too. Nothing at all exceptional, it seems, and not a veiled reference to Fante's influence, much if at all. The flowing, singing line, which Bukowski made his own, would I believe be more in keeping with Bukowski's writer's debt of love to Fante. Fante truly knew how to let the words sing without interrupting the flow and emotional evocation. That is what I believe Bukowski loved the most about Fante, that Fante wasn't afraid to show his emotions and he stayed with them until the thoughts ran through their course until the 18th hole, so to say.

About the chapter lengths... I always felt that his poems or chapter lengths were completely organic to the mood and intent of what he was writing to say, even if the length of a chapter or the wording was like what a child might do. (The first few chapters of Factotum, for example, are shockingly "simple" but effective, and you read them as if anyone could do that, but in fact no one can.) I have never felt that Bukowski, when at his best, had anyone in mind, stylistic speaking, but himself, even if he happened to be writing about another author, such as his references to DH Lawrence in some of his poems, or Balzac, or whomever.

Now I'm wondering: Is it the translation? But then, why would they change chapter-lenghts? I've never read Fante in original (hard to get here) but plan in doing so. Can any Fante-reader on this forum please tell me if his chapters are that short?

Well, if they did, it would be something of a sacrilege to string chapters together in a way Fante never intended. I would be more inclined to believe that, in the original works, the chapters were as long as Fante wished them, as I have read both, but of course I've not read them in their German translations. Perhaps it would be interesting to check the number of chapters, or chapter titles, between the English and German editions with someone who has the English. (Sorry that I no longer have a copy of either.)

And if not, how did Sounes get that idea?

Though I've yet to read Sounes apparently well-written and researched bio, I get the impression that he makes a number of surmises, in what I read of his conclusions on this newsgroup, that might not be in keeping with how Bukowski may have viewed in own life. An example. Just because in many German families beatings are a fact of life, there's no way to gauge how each child will respond to them, and I felt that Sounes apparently underestimated Bukowski's sensitivity to such beatings or downplayed them. (If I'm beiing unfair to Sounes on this point, I apologize.) Overall however, Sounes seems to have dug-up a great deal of hitherto unknown sources and references. But as for Bukowski being shy around Fante because B. modeled his chapter lengths after F."”wow, that doesn't resonate with the Bukowski I know from his writings. I would be more inclined to believe that Bukowski felt shy around Fante at the end of his life because Fante was going through the hell of diabetes and was getting carved up with amputations and suffering the darkness of a damning blindness. That's why Fante last book, Dreams From Bunker Hill, was dictated to his wife: he was blind and flying like a bat out of hell. My favorite novel of his, by the way.

Best wishes, Poptop