Bukowski on Jack Kerouac? (1 Viewer)

It wasn't a matter of counting syllables with him. It was lean, pure, concise. All about spirit. Maybe he did count syllables, I dunno, but that's not the point.
Well, if he didn't count syllables it isn't Haiku, is it? Which was my point.

I don't care if you like Kerouac or not. But I do find your insults unnecessary and, alas, quite predictable.
Alas and alack, woe is me! weary.tune finds my comments unnecessary. He of the mighty 23 posts. Which way to the poison? I must find a roof to fling myself from! Alas, I can but not find one. Forsooth. Tally ho. Pip pip.

By the way, how do you insult someone who is dead? Seems to me it would be a good trick, and if I inadvertently pulled it off I want to know how, so I can do it at will.
 
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Well, if he didn't count syllables it isn't Haiku, is it? Which was my point.

He of the mighty 23 posts.

By the way, how do you insult someone who is dead? Seems to me it would be a good trick, and if I inadvertently pulled it off I want to know how, so I can do it at will.
What's the number of posts got to do with anything? I actually think you make good and interesting comments. I was specifically referring to your comments about Kerouac which were insulting to those of us who appreciate his work. Is that so hard to understand?

I don't know how you insult someone who's dead. Maybe the same way you wish someone who is dead a happy birthday.

A Japanese haiku is a complete poem in seventeen syllables in three short lines. To suit the American language Kerouac had to redefine that, which was why he called his haiku for "American Haiku" or "Western Haiku". Kerouac didn't count syllables. To Kerouac a Western Haiku was "simply to say a lot in three short lines. It must be very simple and free of all poetic trickery and make a little picture and yet be as airy and graceful as a Vivaldi Pastorella."
 
A Japanese haiku is a complete poem in seventeen syllables in three short lines. To suit the American language Kerouac had to redefine that, which was why he called his haiku for "American Haiku" or "Western Haiku". Kerouac didn't count syllables. To Kerouac a Western Haiku was "simply to say a lot in three short lines. It must be very simple and free of all poetic trickery and make a little picture and yet be as airy and graceful as a Vivaldi Pastorella."

Thanks for the clarification.

I haven't read Kerouac and can only offer this as critique: The day I first read Bukowski, a friend had bought two books: On the Road and Factotum. Well we had a few drinks and he left them at my place so later I picked one up to have a read.

First I picked up On the Road, read about 8 pages and put it down. Then I picked up Factotum, and read the whole book. Maybe one day I'll try something else by Mack, but I'm in no hurry.
 
Hey, my name's jack. I'm not
Much of a writer, but
The ladies love me
And I looked like a damned cool
Rodeo cowboy.
Because I do speed and crack
And write my sizzling poetry on Benzedrine
Highs in bathrooms on toilet
rolls. But i'm sexy as a fuck
(yes, he is)
and i'm rolling it down all the way
to my grave.

Thanks for the clarification.

I haven't read Kerouac and can only offer this as critique: The day I first read Bukowski, a friend had bought two books: On the Road and Factotum. Well we had a few drinks and he left them at my place so later I picked one up to have a read.

First I picked up On the Road, read about 8 pages and put it down. Then I picked up Factotum, and read the whole book. Maybe one day I'll try something else by Mack, but I'm in no hurry.

got you there, hank solo. that's what happened to me; i thought i'd be cool and get a little beat into my soul. but it turned out a disaster. i plowed through 50 pages and couldn't take it anymore. at least bukowski's writing doesn't SOUND like he was drunk or high (even if he was).
 
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I never thought ON THE ROAD was all that great, as literature. It's more a cultural revolution sort of thing. Brought on the "napsack revolution" of the Sixties, as one of the paperback blurbs said.

I agree Kerouac doesn't hold your attention like Bukowski can, but what does?

What I find appealing about Kerouac is his perception of America in the 30 through 50s. He saw common life through this visionary filter. The 60s never really happened to him; he was all washed up by then, fat and alcoholic and hanging out with his mom in Florida.

He's one of those writers you either like or don't like, which isn't saying much, I realize, but hell, it's early and I need more coffee...
 
Here is where I think Jack and Buk converge.
I like both for the reason below
My fav Jack story (and I'm paraphrasing here) is him being piss drunk in the middle of the street. Something pops into his head and he grabs the small 2X3 notebook from his shirt pocket to write it down.
Even if what he wrote was crap his dedication to writing-to capturing the moment was admirable and heroic. The difference between writers and non writers IMO is some have great thoughts they should have written down and others (like Jack and BUk) make the effort to sit down and write.

Both also seemed to want to catch that "aha" that Zen moment in the day.
Did Buk do it better than the Jack sure but to listen to Jack read an excerpt from On the road with Steve Allen at the piano is pure (and what I'd call) poetry.

Bee
why are you looking at me
I am not a flower
 
Yeah he went completely in the opposite direction of where he was headed and became a bit of an asshole. Despite writing only a passable Buk biography, Barry Miles did write an excellent Kerouac bio.
 
The fly
In my medicine cabinet
Has died of old age
Jimmy Snerp - you picked my favorite Kerouac poem! I was going to quote that one myself. It's perfect.
Immortal poem.

Despite writing only a passable Buk biography, Barry Miles did write an excellent Kerouac bio.
I read the Ann Charters biography on Kerouac long ago. I found it a good one and I was touched by the pictures she took took of "Ti Jean".
 
I love On The Road, but his poetry, by and large, is complete and utter trash.

There's some gems but overall it sucks. Drugs + an editor who'll publish anything you shit out onto a page is a bad combination. Kerouac was only truly good when he took the time to edit his works. On The Road, Dharma Bums... not much else.
Agree with that although I'd probably add 'Big Sur' to the list. Wake Up is pretty naff by the way but mercifully short.
 
I loved On The Road. My memory is hazy. It was 3/4 years ago when I first read it, but I remember feeling really energized after reading it. It just made me want to get up and go and take in the world. It was a very optimistic book from what I remember.

Big Sur was a complete contrast. I couldn't get into it at all. I didn't ever finish it. The atmosphere just felt really deflated....he was clearly in a bad state when he wrote it, and it just seemed to go on and on. I was at least hoping for a small ray of light, or for it to stir at least something within me, but instead it just made me want to dig myself into a hole. To be honest when I read it I was going through a low patch, so maybe that's why it didn't do much for me but there's only so much I can read of a washed out depressed writer going through alcohol withdrawal, basically contradicting all he said before. It is honest though...I can't complain about that.

Dharma Bums had it's brief shining moments, but as a whole I couldn't stick with it. Too much zen...too much pompousness.

The Lonesome Traveller was pretty hit or miss. Some sections were almost unreadable, but a few really stay in my mind. Especially 'Alone on a Mountaintop' & 'The Railroad Earth'.

Mexico City Blues. I haven't read it all. I dipped in and out and didn't like it. It's mainly the buddhist references that don't appeal to me. It didn't seem very real to me.

Overall I rate Keroauc, but he doesn't have the consistancy as Buk or Fante.
 
Kerouac was an original "” a damn fine writer

i think the real question is not the man, the myth, but his writing. was it original for the times? did he break new ground, like jackson pollock? fuck the speed and whatever else he took or didn't, it's the words that count.

for the record, i'm a big fan. and his books (some good; some great) were milestones for american writing. all the ivory tower bullshit being taught was blown apart; the same way bukowski did.

hence, my respect for JK.

he was pro-vietnam (ugh!), etc. but i don't give a shit about that. i care about what he wrote. his art; his craft. i think he even disliked hippies and all those who praised him "” but they weren't praising him, rather, what he wrote.

(what's amazing is his writings seem to contradict what he believed in in the real world...was writing his escape into his real world? he was a product of his times, like all of us; and all artists.)

unfortunately, he turned into a blubbering fool at the end. bloated, drunk, hanging out at local pubs and making an ass of himself. people here in florida still tell stories about him, drinking with him, etc.

i also know people in NY who knew him, hung out with him, when he was just getting on the fame bandwagon; and he hung out in northport all the time. they recall him as quiet, cool, a good guy "” and have lots of pics of the time hanging with JK.

but if anyone had met vincent van gogh today, and watched some of his antics, would you think less of his art, his craft? supposedly pablo picasso was a fucking prick. what does that have to do with what he created? does that make him a bad artist, or undesirable to collect?

methinks not.

people die. original art endures.

pax
 
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I like Buk more, but Kerouac (though he was hit and miss for me), is right up there with him.

Almost done with this 600 page book called the Kerouac Reader, I think, that has excerpts from his books and poetry, essays and letters-really fun to hop around for me.

The ones I like are Desolation Angels, Dharma Bums, Subterraneans, On The Road & I'm looking forward to reading Tristessa, I think, oneof the few I missed.
 
So what do you think? Is it all I said it was, or did I lead you astray? I read it years ago, about 1978. Maybe I would rate it differently today if I reread it. I feel like I need to reread all of the stuff I loved back then, I've forgotten so much of it.
 
No, I thought it was a beautiful little book.
And I was just thinking the other day about stuff I need to re-read whilst looking through my bookshelves at home - some classic Vonnegut especially but there's a few books like On the Road that I haven't read in such a long time. I've been reading White Teeth by Zadie Smith and while it's ok, it's basically 500+ pages of not a great deal involving characters you care less and less about the further you get into it. It's well-written which has kept me going but I found myself thinking I could be reading the Sirens of Titan for fuck's sake. But when you're 400 pages into a 550 page book it seems a shame not to finish it I suppose.
 
My favorite Kerouac is the short novel, Tristessa. It has a simple purity that is flawless. To me, anyway.

Absolutely. I'm so glad to see someone point this out. He worked hard at his craft despite what the "spontaneous prose" concept would have people believe, but some parts of On the Road feel like unrevised journal entries and seem very dated. Revolutionary, but dated in a way that Bukowski and even Fante writing in the 30's still doesn't seem. There were bits and pieces of other books I enjoyed; Desolation Angels has its moments. Mexico City Blues and Dharma Bums too. But Tristessa had more of what I was looking for. It's a drug addled mystical-romantic gem of a novella with a strange Mexican aura of morphine, alcohol, Christianity and Kerouac's own compassionate and sad Buddhism. Free form but more polished and concise somehow, at around 100 pages. It's great.
 
You don't see Tristessa discussed much, as if it were a minor work. I think it's far better than Desolation Angels, which has it's good parts but is flawed. I recently reread On The Road and it was better than I remembered, having last read it, and most of Kerouac, in the 70s. But I made the mistake of rereading the original edition when I also have the "Scroll" restored edition -- I should have read that version, so I need to reread it once more.
 
Like thousands of others, I read a lot of Kerouac in my late teens but very little since then. His poetry is very inconsistent and tends toward shitty. The comment about drugs and an editor publishing whatever Kerouac wrote is spot on. As for the novels, there's some real gems and some bores.

The gems:
On The Road (I think at this point in the game this is essential reading)
Dharma Bums
Lonesome Traveller (probably a good introduction to Kerouac, even moreso than Road. It's short and sweet and eases you in to his rambling style)
Big Sur (one of the best documents of an alcoholic's disintegration into a personal hell)
 

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