Jazz and Buk (1 Viewer)

I was wondering if others wondered why Buk didn't like/appreciate jazz.
I've thought he would have embraced the musician searching for a new sound.
I suspect his dislike or ambivalence toward jazz had may have had something to do with jazz? association with ?The beat thing?.

Retrospect humbling us all. Buk (and I?m paraphrasing) wrote Donavan seemed more sincere than Dylan. Donovan?s last CD, Beat Caf?, follows a litany of really bad flower power astral Angel releases. I know I own 13 Donovan albums 3 of which don?t stink. Not anyone can title an album Neutronica.

I digress. Why how did Buk miss the importance, the fire in jazz?
 
It might have a lot more to do with availability than dislike for the nature of jazz. I remember reading somewhere, possibly an interview with Buk or a bio, that he got into classical music because it was what he found on the radio sometime early in his life, and he just kept listening to it in his room while he wrote. To find really good jazz, though, one had to be out on the road looking for a nightclub (a la Kerouac), something that Buk didn't really enjoy.
Maybe if he could have sat at his typer and listened to jazz, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 
Jimmy Snerp,

First, why don't you spell your name "bobbie"? And, second, there is more to you than readily meets the eye?13 Donovan albums, that has got to be a record (no pun). I suspect that Buk dissed Dylan because he was one of the few that could be considered a rival for the mantle of ?God-ordained poet?; and Buk always liked to keep the competition in their place. Donovan was no threat. Plus, anyone that everybody else thought was the cat?s ass, he would have to look sideways at; considering the genius of the crowd.

He has, on occasion, mentioned favorably such jazz notables as Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington, to name two. I feel that what classintellectual said is a probable factor; in his formative years, there was in all likelihood a dearth of good jazz stations in LA. Two other factors: Buk, for all his downing of the academic, was a closet snob and loved to namedrop authors, composers, painters from the classical school to the modern; and show off how much he knew of the details of their lives; so, naturally, he would be drawn to a more ?serious? music?the one thing he shared in common with bank presidents. As for background music, I can attest that, and I would think that Buk found it to be so also, the lilt of violins and a wash of symphonic sound provides a much less demanding sonic environment than does be-bop; which would, at any rate, awaken the call of a more frenetic style of writing than what was Buk?s; definitely more beat. It just fit his method more to listen to the classical stations.

SD
 
SamDusky said:
Buk, for all his downing of the academic, was a closet snob and loved to namedrop authors, composers, painters from the classical school to the modern; and show off how much he knew of the details of their lives;
You know, I always thought that some of the composer factoids he used in poems were just things he heard on the radio. If you ever listen to a classical station, they'll drop in little historical facts about the composers from time to time. Not saying he was ignorant of the details without he radio, just that some of the things he mentioned seemed very obscure to me.

And he did have the habit of typing what he was hearing on the radio...Farmer John smokes his own meat comes to mind. That was just a radio commercial he based a poem on.
 
reply to Sam

SamDusky said:
First, why don't you spell your name "bobbie"? And, second, there is more to you than readily meets the eye?13 Donovan albums, that has got to be a record (no pun).

I swear I really liked the early Donavon stuff and the material with Jeff Beck was interesting then he went off the rails for me. I'm sure we all remember and regfet purchasing an album expcting great stuff only to be disappointed
I bought the Donavan stuff expecting some return to former abiity. It didn't happen. It wasn't all a waste though, Donavan albums are the single best reason for downloads and Napster. If its crap (or celstial crap he actually has a song called the Inter Galactic laxative) we delete.

I did enjoy your observation regarding the radio music and background sounds.
 
mjp said:
You know, I always thought that some of the composer factoids he used in poems were just things he heard on the radio. If you ever listen to a classical station, they'll drop in little historical facts about the composers from time to time. Not saying he was ignorant of the details without he radio, just that some of the things he mentioned seemed very obscure to me.

Now that you mention, it does seem like the most logical explanation for his source. I couldn?t see him reading so many music history books as they are rather dry (on the average, especially in his day), and I?ve always enjoyed a little of the personalizing of the composers by the classical FM deejays telling about their affairs, mistresses and foibles. {As an aside, during my music major phase, my roommates and I would turn off the radio in-between songs so we could play ?name the composer? on the drive to the campus. (Tom Waits? bass player was, in those days, my bass player?that is, he played in a bunch of groups and jams I had and was my roomie [not to namedrop or anything]. I was pissed when I saw him playing with Waits on David Letterman; saying, ?That SOB made it to the tube before me.? ha; it goes to show what actually practicing your instrument, instead of hustling the girls in the viola section of the college orchestra section, will get you. But I?ll bet I have more cannon fodder to write about than he does; him, being the studious type; remember kids, stay in school, and you too can...MFIR)
mjp said:
And he did have the habit of typing what he was hearing on the radio...Farmer John smokes his own meat comes to mind. That was just a radio commercial he based a poem on.

Buk was such a punster; I've always enjoyed that line, having heard the same commercial in those days and wondered if everyone else got it; and if they, the ad writers, intended the entendre (they must have).

SD
 
Jimmy Snerp said:
I swear I really liked the early Donavon stuff and the material with Jeff Beck was interesting then he went off the rails for me. I'm sure we all remember and regfet purchasing an album expcting great stuff only to be disappointed
I bought the Donavan stuff expecting some return to former abiity. It didn't happen. It wasn't all a waste though, Donavan albums are the single best reason for downloads and Napster. If its crap (or celstial crap he actually has a song called the Inter Galactic laxative) we delete.

I did enjoy your observation regarding the radio music and background sounds.

Donavon did start out with a lot of promise, and then seemed to get lost in ozone a little (but I liked the wizard getup that he wore on ?From a Flower to a Garden? or whatever it was called (I?m working from memory now, being too lazy to look on Google for the actual name of the album)). People are visited by the muse at irregular intervals, it seems.

I remember reading a review of a San Francisco concert where he was the opening act for a puck band, and all the fans were punkers, so they were mighty upset hearing a folkie like him; the ebb and flow of the popular mind. Anyhow, cool on ya for listening to him (and have a good one),

SD
 
I once sent rose to a girl with the inscription from a flower to a garden-stealing directly from Donovan-it worked evn though I didn't at the time.
If you want a laugh go to http://www.donovan.ie/

It's a bit like going through high school photo's
 
Hostage To Good Sounds

It might have a lot more to do with availability than dislike for the nature of jazz. I remember reading somewhere, possibly an interview with Buk or a bio, that he got into classical music because it was what he found on the radio sometime early in his life, and he just kept listening to it in his room while he wrote. To find really good jazz, though, one had to be out on the road looking for a nightclub (a la Kerouac), something that Buk didn't really enjoy.
Maybe if he could have sat at his typer and listened to jazz, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I grew up in the Los Angeles area, so here's another take on Bukowski and music.

There was indeed a jazz radio station in LA during the '50s, '60s, and '70's"”KNOB, later KKGO. But it had a commercial format and commercials can become intrusive and aggravating to write to. Later on, KLON, a non-commercial jazz station located at California State University in Long Beach, became available to listeners in 1981. Bukowski certainly had his chance to hear jazz, and probably did so if only in passing.

Elsewhere, in the classical market, there was KFAC, a commercial station that Bukowski certainly listened to; and then KUSC, a non-profit station, came along in 1981, and there were informative announcers who usually gave interesting background information on each piece. One of the great features of this station is that it plays uninterrupted music from midnight to 6 AM, and I think that was perfect for Bukowski and his penchant for writing in the wee hours of the night. (He obviously could write at other times as well.)

Jazz is an entirely different vibe (no pun intended). There's the constant percussive effects of the drums... the vocals... the wail of the brasses... the trumpet solos... the big bands...and so on. In the classical genre, there are the violins... violas... cellos... string bases..., and the brasses and woodwinds are usually more blended in with the overall orchestral sound.

Plus, most classical music has been around for over 200 years, and one becomes familiar with the lives of the composers who wrote many of these compositions. If Bukowski had been a musician, I don't think he would have been a Charlie Parker. In fact, I don't think he'd have any kind of a jazz counterpart. But if he'd been in the world of classical music, he might have been one of the greats like a Beethoven or Brahms. Or a Hugo Wolf or a Sibelius.

Of course, these comparisons exist only in my imagination. Still, I'm a former jazz musician, familiar with its history, and I don't see Bukowski fitting into that world, and this is another reason why I view him as an outsider to the world of the Beats. Many of the Beats were crazy about jazz and even tried to write like improvising jazz soloists. Kerouac actually did a jazz/poetry album with two of the great tenor players of the '40s and '50s: Zoot Sims and Al Cohn.

I would find it hard to imagine Bukowski doing a jazz/poetry album with anyone, being too much of an outsider and more attune to the sonorities of the orchestra colors and the fact that it's mostly non-verbal and may tell a more complex story. Most of the pieces are longer than in jazz, and one can really get into them without being pulled out too soon or as easily distracted. This is not a put-down of jazz, most of which I happen to love.

The above is merely an educated guess on my part, but I do think he loved the long uninterrupted nights of music on KUSC"”perfect for writing undisturbed. And write and write and write he did, with his friendly bottles of wine for additional inspiration and companionship. Those who grew up in Los Angeles will be familiar with the FM stations I've mentioned and might imagine the same possibilities. "”Poptop.
 
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I was wondering if others wondered why Buk didn't like/appreciate jazz.
I've thought he would have embraced the musician searching for a new sound.
I suspect his dislike or ambivalence toward jazz had may have had something to do with jazz? association with ?The beat thing?.

Retrospect humbling us all. Buk (and I?m paraphrasing) wrote Donavan seemed more sincere than Dylan. Donovan?s last CD, Beat Caf?, follows a litany of really bad flower power astral Angel releases. I know I own 13 Donovan albums 3 of which don?t stink. Not anyone can title an album Neutronica.

I digress. Why how did Buk miss the importance, the fire in jazz?

hmmm..
was he was a narrow minded old fart?

again
another re:bukowski thread
in the all things NOT bukowski topics

pffft
 
You know, I always thought that some of the composer factoids he used in poems were just things he heard on the radio. If you ever listen to a classical station, they'll drop in little historical facts about the composers from time to time. Not saying he was ignorant of the details without he radio, just that some of the things he mentioned seemed very obscure to me.

And he did have the habit of typing what he was hearing on the radio...Farmer John smokes his own meat comes to mind. That was just a radio commercial he based a poem on.

i think he says somewhere in Post Office that he had a couple of volumes of something like "Lives of the Composers", which he had attained by accident after splitting up with Joyce. that's how he explains his ability to settle an argument between 2 of his workmates about Beethoven's birthday (i think). of course, that's how he explains his character's knowledge of composers, not necessarily his own.
 
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0393038572/?tag=charlebukowsa-20

This is a great read not only because of its biographies, but by virtue of
its excellent writing by Harold C. Schonberg. The incredible rejection
some of these musicians went through before being accepted by
the public is sometimes staggering. I was a music major in college
and that's where I first encountered it, and I enjoyed reading a
bio while listening to that composer's music. I would imagine that
Lives... would be in any half-way decent library, and I think
the knowledge of it would further illuminate Bukowski's refinement,
sensitivity and inner life. Beyond the actual poems he wrote, I
believe that classical music was a great companion to his solitude
and he was also interested in their lives of greatness as well.
 
I checked out the link and searched inside the book. It certainly looked very interesting. A good who's who in classical music, for sure. I would like to read it...
 
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The One-Eyed Cyclops

I checked out the link and searched inside the book. It certainly looked very interesting. A good who's who in classical music, for sure. I would like to read it...

You might enjoy it. My only reservation about Schonberg is that he doesn't like or understand Mahler... and I happen to think that Mahler is tremendous, satisfying and consummately rewarding. (Try Pierre Boulez's performance of Mahler's Symphony No. 1"”a great intro, imo, into Mahler's musical universe; the conductor and orchestra can make all the difference in the world.) Just when you think Mahler is going to get boring, he somehow changes the pace and keeps the listener interested. His melodies and orchestrations are brilliant and his music is like someone telling the story of his life in sound, including his flashbacks into childhood and that sort of thing.

So it's funny how everyone has a blind spot about something, and with Schonberg it's Mahler... Maybe the problem is that he was reading Mailer to Mahler!"”something dire that maestro Bukowski warned his readers about in one of his poems, lol, like drinking wine and beer together. But for fascinating bios on composers such as Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Listz, Schumann, Wagner, Tchaikowski...most major ones... Schonberg is wonderful. In his chapter on Chopin, he talks about a musical gathering where Schumann, Chopin, Listz and Mendelssohn are taking turns at the piano. That must have been one hell of a party"”a million-to-one gathering of geniuses. The chapter on Wagner and his insatiably inflated ego also gives great insight into the man, including his love of raw oysters...sproing!

"”Poptop.
 
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I seem to remember reading somewhere where Marina claims to have only one serious argument with B and it was about Jazz. He didn't like it too much. Also, in one of his books (Jesus, I can't remember which one) he explains why he doesn't write to jazz music. He said it was too "jerky".
 
Note that roaches were changed to spiders when this was published by Black Sparrow. I think it was in Wormwood in it's original form.
 
Maybe he knew it would eventually be read on the Web?


Or perhaps spiders are hunters while cockroaches are well cockroaches.
Personally I think the image of a cockroach listening to music hunkered down among the knobs and wires is a better image than a spider. Cockroaches seem to represent the worlds under belly just waiting for the us to blow ourselves up, where spiders haven't been the same since Charlotte hit the big screen.
 
any idea why the change from roaches to spiders? surely not to appeal to or identify with a wider audience!
I don't know, though I would assume it was Martin's change. But that's just an assumption based on lots of other changes he made (Bukowski wrote more than once about how upset he was with Martin's changes to the first version of Women, and in letters to Martin alluded to changes he thought were excessive in other books).
 
I don't know if anyone brought this up but Buk once refered to Jazz music as "...the music that jerks around."
 
whoever made the change, it doesn't add nor subtract from the poem, unlike the roach/spider change.

i'd be interested to know who revised "an empire of coins." it was tightened up, with later publication. maybe it was a favourite of bukowski's from his earlier work.
 
Bach, Beethoven, Bukowski and...

In a way, it's too bad Bukowski didn't appreciate jazz more,
because, let me tell ya, he missed out on the great singer
and mood lifter Billie Holiday"”sensational. He might have
felt better when he wasn't writing. There were entire universes
of goodness in addition to what could be found on the excellent
but sometimes boring KUSC and KFAC. Or maybe he heard her
and she just wasn't for him. But wow... such glad/sad sounds!
And she swings.

http://www.amazon.com/Lady-Sings-Bi...ef=sr_1_2/002-3826552-9169613?ie=UTF8&s=music

"”Popnote.
 
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In a way, it's too bad Bukowski didn't appreciate jazz more,
because, let me tell ya, he missed out on the great singer
and mood lifter Billie Holiday"”sensational. He might have
felt better when he wasn't writing.

i'm glad in a sad way that he didn't feel better when he wasn't writing.
it just isn't his style.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Buk take a music appreciation class in school? If so that was all classical. I know good classical music can easily calm a crying and aggitated young child. Classical music goes with good drink. Even goes with Eastside beer or Brew 102.
 
A previous post refers to his listening to what was on the radio. What was playing on AM radio in L.A. in the early years he was writing?

The golden age of jazz was (in my opinion anyway) the years when I was a child, and I never heard any of it until I was an adult. Just Perry Como, Andy Williams that kind of crap.

Buk may have not been motivated to seek out, or had any patience for the crowd at the clubs you would have to have visited to see/hear the stuff.

Can you imagine Mingus and Buk in the same room?
 
When Bukowski was writing Jazz was all the Trend, it was trendy, posturing time of cool music, that he obviously wanted to distance himself from.

I enjoy lots of Jazz music but I have grown in my love of certian classical composers. I guess it's a cliche these days - But I have time for almost any form of music in some form of other.
 
Bukowski was not into "The Trend" he was not "One of the Cool Kids". He is now, but then he was writing. He was writing so we could speculate like this.
 
Bukowski was not into "The Trend" he was not "One of the Cool Kids"

Absolutely. As wel as probably genuinely disliking Jazz...it was certain too trendy for him in that period. And you note quite interestingly - that Bukowski is now a trend of sorts.
 
Jazz was more of a beat thing. Kerouac had many many jazz colobarations, including David Amram who I actually had the chance to meet twice. Such an amazing person. He's the kind of guy who people really look up to and admire, and when he meets new people, he's just as excited to meet him as people are excited to meet him.

My college actually offers this course called "Kerouac Wrote Here," it involves flying out to San Fran, heading to Denver, NYC, MA (I think that's it, there might be other places). It's a 12 day course, which I am hopefully taking this January. And David Amram actually goes out on the course with us.

I'm taking a Beat Lit class in the fall.
 
Just my 2cents here but these last few posts seem to be getting closer to the bone.

I think that for Bukowski classical music represented order, complexity, discipline and beauty in a way that jazz did not. He seemed to draw strength from the fact that the old composers (esp the Germans) lived lives of great suffering and yet created music of great beauty. I think that helped him get thru, in his life and in his writing. [Personal note: when I was drinking and awoke really sick, with the End of the World Club meeting in my head, there was nothing better than turning on the clasical radio station...if only to convince myself that life still held order and meaning outside of my own personal chaos. Really got me back on my feet more than once.]

These composers were, in a sense, of mythical proportions given to them by history as well as their achievements. Buk could go to the free library and read about them and their trials while trying to take his mind off hunger and being deadass broke. The real hardcore jazz guys--Diz, Bird, Miles, Trane--these guys were all in the trenches too. They were all getting drunk and dopesick and getting busted and having their cabarét cards yanked. So, while I'm sure Buk could appreciate that, they weren't really able to give him a lift the classical composers did.

Then there's the fact that jazz was the hip cool beat thing, which some of you guys already mentioned. The clubs, the fashion, everyone trying to look cool. That was the anti-Buk. And if I'm not mistaken, there were free concerts by the LA Phil back then, and he could sit out on the lawn for free and soak in the music.

Just some thoughts... you can take em or leave em.

-Charlie
 
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