Well, that's certainly fair, bukfan. Don't get me wrong; my general position is that I think astrology is bunk. But I'm also, by definition, a fallible human. Maybe there's something...?
Oh, thy starry night! ... Bukowski in the Sky with Diamonds (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter cirerita
- Start date
Here's some science for ya.. and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
That might be, and that question is up to each one of us to answer for ourselves. In case there is something, call it "God", a "supreme being", a "force" or whatever one could call it, it won't/can't be confined/limited to one specific belief system, I think. This "something" will probably transcend organized religion, if it exists. Maybe the beauty of a spiritual quest is that nobody can tell you the answer although all the belief systems claim they have them.
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Have you ever read anything by Jiddu Krishnamurti? You might like him Bukfan.
YouTube: Living Without Conflict
YouTube: Living Without Conflict
Is that what you believe?
I must say, I have to agree with Bukfan here, and go I step further. I do believe that there is "something" out there. I call it God. It does transcend organized religion. The beuaty of the spiritual quest is that only the spirit can tell you the answer.
p.s. never discuss religion on the interwebz. It goes nowhere.
Here's another curiosity from the horoscope of Charles Bukowski, text from Heaven Knows What by Grant Lewi (originally published in 1935):
213 VENUS SQUARE [OPPOSITE] URANUS
This like Venus conjunction Uranus (Venus in the same space with Uranus) in the quality of the emotional life. Read that paragraph. In addition to the characteristics given there, this will bring an additional somberness and sobriety to your outlook on human relations and will cause you at some time some considerable disappointment through misplaced or frustrated affections. You tend strongly to the unconventional in love matters, making a fetish of independence in your love-life. A certain austerity attaches to you, and you can be unyielding when it does not suit your purpose to yield, at which time your detachment and objectivity can amount to cruelty. But at other times look out for impulse and temperament, for this is an erratic and unreliable position and makes you liable to periodic destructive impulses.
203 VENUS CONJUNCTION URANUS
This gives an emotional nature alternately repressed and explosive, apparently somewhat conventional and cold but actually very independent and erratic in the love-life. A highly nervous quality accompanies all of your emotional dealings. You are an idealist in the realms of love, full of theories about sex and human relations in general, which complicate relationships that to other people are much more simple. You think much on emotional matters and are capable of hasty and jumpy action with respect to them; the motivating force behind your impulses is rational rather than physical"”you can be swept off your feet by an idea, an ideal, a theory, more quickly than by the physical beauty of an individual. This ideology of yours is likely to take quite unusual forms, and to lead to strange relationships among strange and out-of-the-way people, because of whom you gain the reputation for being an eccentric. With Venus conjunction Saturn [mentioned in a previous post] much trouble through emotional matters, and some isolation from ordinary social contacts in search of the sensational and bizarre. An idealistic, generalized, and humanistic quality colors all your emotions, and elevates them from the purely personal plane to a kind of abstracted passion.
"”-
Grant Lewi was born June 8, 1902 in Albany, New York. He was educated at Hamilton College and Columbia University. After graduating from Columbia, Lewi taught English at Dartmouth, at the University of North Dakota, and at the University of Delaware.
"”-
Another curiosity, psychologist Carl Jung:
While studying astrology I have applied it to concrete cases many times. ... The experiment is most suggestive to a versatile mind, unreliable in the hands of the unimaginative, and dangerous in the hands of a fool, as those intuitive methods always are. If intelligently used the experiment is useful in cases where it is a matter of an opaque structure. It often provides surprising insights. The most definite limit of the experiment is lack of intelligence and literal-mindedness of the observer. ... Undoubtedly astrology today is flourishing as never before in the past, but it is still most unsatisfactorily explored despite very frequent use. It is an apt tool only when used intelligently. It is not at all foolproof and when used by a rationalistic and narrow mind it is a definite nuisance. - C. G. Jung: Letters, volume 2, 1951-1961, pages 463-464, letter to Robert L. Kroon, 15 November 1958
213 VENUS SQUARE [OPPOSITE] URANUS
This like Venus conjunction Uranus (Venus in the same space with Uranus) in the quality of the emotional life. Read that paragraph. In addition to the characteristics given there, this will bring an additional somberness and sobriety to your outlook on human relations and will cause you at some time some considerable disappointment through misplaced or frustrated affections. You tend strongly to the unconventional in love matters, making a fetish of independence in your love-life. A certain austerity attaches to you, and you can be unyielding when it does not suit your purpose to yield, at which time your detachment and objectivity can amount to cruelty. But at other times look out for impulse and temperament, for this is an erratic and unreliable position and makes you liable to periodic destructive impulses.
203 VENUS CONJUNCTION URANUS
This gives an emotional nature alternately repressed and explosive, apparently somewhat conventional and cold but actually very independent and erratic in the love-life. A highly nervous quality accompanies all of your emotional dealings. You are an idealist in the realms of love, full of theories about sex and human relations in general, which complicate relationships that to other people are much more simple. You think much on emotional matters and are capable of hasty and jumpy action with respect to them; the motivating force behind your impulses is rational rather than physical"”you can be swept off your feet by an idea, an ideal, a theory, more quickly than by the physical beauty of an individual. This ideology of yours is likely to take quite unusual forms, and to lead to strange relationships among strange and out-of-the-way people, because of whom you gain the reputation for being an eccentric. With Venus conjunction Saturn [mentioned in a previous post] much trouble through emotional matters, and some isolation from ordinary social contacts in search of the sensational and bizarre. An idealistic, generalized, and humanistic quality colors all your emotions, and elevates them from the purely personal plane to a kind of abstracted passion.
"”-
Grant Lewi was born June 8, 1902 in Albany, New York. He was educated at Hamilton College and Columbia University. After graduating from Columbia, Lewi taught English at Dartmouth, at the University of North Dakota, and at the University of Delaware.
"”-
Another curiosity, psychologist Carl Jung:
While studying astrology I have applied it to concrete cases many times. ... The experiment is most suggestive to a versatile mind, unreliable in the hands of the unimaginative, and dangerous in the hands of a fool, as those intuitive methods always are. If intelligently used the experiment is useful in cases where it is a matter of an opaque structure. It often provides surprising insights. The most definite limit of the experiment is lack of intelligence and literal-mindedness of the observer. ... Undoubtedly astrology today is flourishing as never before in the past, but it is still most unsatisfactorily explored despite very frequent use. It is an apt tool only when used intelligently. It is not at all foolproof and when used by a rationalistic and narrow mind it is a definite nuisance. - C. G. Jung: Letters, volume 2, 1951-1961, pages 463-464, letter to Robert L. Kroon, 15 November 1958
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Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
Indeed I have! I read a bunch of his books when I was young. I still have them together with a bunch of his talks on cassette tapes (taped from a local radio station) and a couple on VHS. I have'nt read him for many years, but I'm glad I read him back then. It was vey inspiring to read a person who did'nt offer you any belief system and even warned against them saying it was up to the individual to find out things for oneself. If nothing else, it prevented me from being trapped in organized religion, which was very popular at the time with Jesus freak and guru's all over the place.
Thanks for the link, Mikey! I'll have a look at it.
(Btw. we've talked about Krishnamurti etc. before here on buknet. The thread must be here somewhere, in case anyone should be interested)
Oh yes, Rob! Plus I'm a bit of a rebel in that regard. I could never subscribe to a belief system and have religious middlemen (priests etc.) tell me what's right and wrong and how to perceive "God", if he exists. And when it comes to morals you don't need a belief system to tell you it's wrong to kill, steal etc. Nobody wants to be the victim of a crime, and therefore you don't engage in crime yourself. It's that simple, at least for me.
I like what he says about the dangers of practicing astrology, although he seems to believe in it himself and thinks it should only be practiced by the right persons - such as himself ;)
Thanks for the additional stuff on Buk's horoscope, Poptop! Lots of it could fit on Buk, I think, except for this maybe:
- I don't think Buk was into any ideals or theories, but I guess it should only be understood as a potential or tendency who might be realized or not by the individual.
It could be fun to take a random horoscope for another sign and see how much that would fit on Buk ;)
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Bukowski & Bacchus
I like very much asteroid Bacchus conjunct Hank's Mars.
Bacchus was the roman god of wine & beer,
Hank's favourite deity.
Moon is opposing Eris,
Eris is the goddes of strife,
suits well to "battling Bukowskis"
asteroid Linda is conj. his Sun,
Linda's were important in his life.
btw: 10 p.m. makes an ascendent Taurus
I like very much asteroid Bacchus conjunct Hank's Mars.
Bacchus was the roman god of wine & beer,
Hank's favourite deity.
Moon is opposing Eris,
Eris is the goddes of strife,
suits well to "battling Bukowskis"
asteroid Linda is conj. his Sun,
Linda's were important in his life.
btw: 10 p.m. makes an ascendent Taurus
Attachments
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Welcome Harald, the mystery astrologer from Europe. Thank you.
So it will be easier to see:
(Old forum attachment ID is incorrect, see thumbnails.)
So it will be easier to see:
(Old forum attachment ID is incorrect, see thumbnails.)
mjp
Founding member
Cite all the written examples and post all the pretty charts you'd like. It's still delusional to claim or believe that the location of planets millions and billions of miles away had any impact on a new human's personality.
If any of this were true, it would seem to me that the the moment of conception would be when all those scary planets are wreaking their havoc on your unlived life. But no, it's the moment of birth that gives astrologers a hard on. Why? Because no one knows the exact time of their conception, and if the astrologers can't be "exact," they can't sell you a load of hokum and bullshit. And pretty charts.
Wouldn't objects much closer to you when you were conceived or born have a greater impact on you? Which creates more of a measurable disturbance in a room; a lamp or Uranus? The answer, for those of you playing along at home, is a lamp. So where are the lamps in my astrology reading? Why is no one asking me how many lights were on, what the temperature of the room was, or whether my dad was drunk?
Science cannot explain astrology, but it can identify, demonstrate and explain this effect. It's one that all you astrology adherents should read up on.
Astrology is just more wishful thinking. Answers for the unanswerable. Just like any other religion. And it fails on all the same fronts as any other religion.
If any of this were true, it would seem to me that the the moment of conception would be when all those scary planets are wreaking their havoc on your unlived life. But no, it's the moment of birth that gives astrologers a hard on. Why? Because no one knows the exact time of their conception, and if the astrologers can't be "exact," they can't sell you a load of hokum and bullshit. And pretty charts.
Wouldn't objects much closer to you when you were conceived or born have a greater impact on you? Which creates more of a measurable disturbance in a room; a lamp or Uranus? The answer, for those of you playing along at home, is a lamp. So where are the lamps in my astrology reading? Why is no one asking me how many lights were on, what the temperature of the room was, or whether my dad was drunk?
Science cannot explain astrology, but it can identify, demonstrate and explain this effect. It's one that all you astrology adherents should read up on.
Astrology is just more wishful thinking. Answers for the unanswerable. Just like any other religion. And it fails on all the same fronts as any other religion.
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Okay, we know you think it is bunk and it may be.
I think besides the lamp they should consider who is there when you are born and what they do. My oldest son pissed on the nurse. Like a horse.
I think besides the lamp they should consider who is there when you are born and what they do. My oldest son pissed on the nurse. Like a horse.
Astrology does have one benefit: it generally annoys/offends religious types. ;)
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Yeah, those religious types don't like being pissed on by horses either.;)
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
On the contrary, religious types (psychologically speaking) loves belief systems and astrology is one of them, just like organized religions. - But I think I know what you mean, that people who subscribe to a specific organized religion don't like astrology. Of course they don't. If you subscribe to a certain belief system then you tend to view other belief systems as being wrong, because yours is the only correct one, that's why you have chosen it, of course. ;)
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I don't believe in any religions because I'm a Buddhist, and I don't believe in astrology because the position of Uranus when I was born made me a natural skeptic.
Spot on, bukfan.
The entire crux of why organized religion has contributed far more to the destruction of people than to the nurturing of them, which, in my mind, should have been the originally-intended purpose. If, in fact, there was one; you know, other than lining the Roman coffers with gold, frankincense and myrrh.
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I'm pretty sure the original purpose of organized religion was to appease that big shiny thing in the sky, and as mankind evolved it became a way to control people and make loads of cash. Well, that's the mental transmission my childhood dog Arfy just sent me from the afterlife anyway. He's usually spot on about these things. He's also trying to rid the world of child abuse and terrorists, but he doesn't have the proper funding. If anyone would like to make a difference send me a private message and I'll tell you how to send me the money so I can send it to Arfy and we can get this ball rolling.
"You have the power, but will you use it?"
-Arfy
"You have the power, but will you use it?"
-Arfy
mjp
Founding member
I believe I have been dismissed! :(
Okay. I surrender. Let the squirrels have their nuts.
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Thank you, we will now continue kicking this dead cat.
some facts for date collectors:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/t/o/Marina-Stone/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0405.html
Henry Charles Bukowski (son of Leonard Bukowski and Emily Bukowski) was born 21 Oct 1895 in Pasadena, California
and died 04 Dec 1958 in Los Angeles, California
He married Katharina Fett on 15 Jul 1920 in Andernach, Germany, daughter of Wilhelm Fett and Nanatte Israel.
Katharina Fett (daughter of Wilhelm Fett and Nanatte Israel) was born 12 May 1895 in Andernach, Germany
and died 23 Dec 1956 in Los Angeles, California
Henry Bukowski and Katherina Fett met in Andernach after World War One and got married.
They rented an apartment at Aktienstrasse 12, where on the 16th of August 1920, at 10 p.m. little Charles Bukowski was born.
That took place in the room where you can see the cross above the window.
They only stayed for two years in Andernach, before moving to Coblenz.
Because of the collapse of the German economy (1923) they moved to the US.
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/t/o/Marina-Stone/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0405.html
Leonard Bukowski was born Oct 1861 in Germany, Emigration: 1884, Baltimore.
Emily Bukowski was born 31 Oct 1865 in Germany, and died 07 Oct 1949 in LOS ANGELES, California
She married Leonard Bukowski on 18 Sep 1887 in Pasadena, California,
Emily Bukowski
from : you get so alone at times that it just makes sense
by : Charles Bukowski
my grandmother always attended the sunrise Easter service
and the Rose Bowl parade.
she also liked to go to the
beach, sit on those benches
facing the sea.
she thought movies were
sinful.
she ate enormous platefuls of
food.
she prayed for me
constantly.
"poor boy: the devil is inside
of you."
she said the devil was
inside her husband
too.
though not divorced
they lived
separately
and had not seen each
other
for 15 years.
she said that hospitals were
nonsense.
she never used them
or
the doctors.
at 87
she died one evening
while feeding her
canary.
she liked to
drop the seed
into the cage
while making these
little
bird sounds.
she wasn't very
interesting
but few people
are.
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/t/o/Marina-Stone/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0405.html
Henry Charles Bukowski (son of Leonard Bukowski and Emily Bukowski) was born 21 Oct 1895 in Pasadena, California
and died 04 Dec 1958 in Los Angeles, California
He married Katharina Fett on 15 Jul 1920 in Andernach, Germany, daughter of Wilhelm Fett and Nanatte Israel.
Katharina Fett (daughter of Wilhelm Fett and Nanatte Israel) was born 12 May 1895 in Andernach, Germany
and died 23 Dec 1956 in Los Angeles, California
Henry Bukowski and Katherina Fett met in Andernach after World War One and got married.
They rented an apartment at Aktienstrasse 12, where on the 16th of August 1920, at 10 p.m. little Charles Bukowski was born.
That took place in the room where you can see the cross above the window.
They only stayed for two years in Andernach, before moving to Coblenz.
Because of the collapse of the German economy (1923) they moved to the US.
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/t/o/Marina-Stone/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0405.html
Leonard Bukowski was born Oct 1861 in Germany, Emigration: 1884, Baltimore.
Emily Bukowski was born 31 Oct 1865 in Germany, and died 07 Oct 1949 in LOS ANGELES, California
She married Leonard Bukowski on 18 Sep 1887 in Pasadena, California,
Emily Bukowski
from : you get so alone at times that it just makes sense
by : Charles Bukowski
my grandmother always attended the sunrise Easter service
and the Rose Bowl parade.
she also liked to go to the
beach, sit on those benches
facing the sea.
she thought movies were
sinful.
she ate enormous platefuls of
food.
she prayed for me
constantly.
"poor boy: the devil is inside
of you."
she said the devil was
inside her husband
too.
though not divorced
they lived
separately
and had not seen each
other
for 15 years.
she said that hospitals were
nonsense.
she never used them
or
the doctors.
at 87
she died one evening
while feeding her
canary.
she liked to
drop the seed
into the cage
while making these
little
bird sounds.
she wasn't very
interesting
but few people
are.
I looked up Buk's data and it turns out he was actually born at 10 A.M. So that changes his horoscope quite a bit.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bukowski,_Charles
He had the Moon in the 12th house and that is often associated with people who need their down time and like to be alone. His Saturn in the 12th is also implicated in this sort of pattern. His bad track record with women can be seen through the opposition of Venus and Uranus. Hard to have long lasting relationships with that combination. But what is neat is that he has a very tight alignment involving Mercury (writing, thinking), Venus (beauty, aesthetics) and Uranus (originality, rebelliousness). That is likely one reason why he ended up pursuing a career in writing. And with Uranus opposing all those planets we can see his preference to follow his own path on the margins outside the mainstream.
Definitely some plausible lines of explanation there.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bukowski,_Charles
He had the Moon in the 12th house and that is often associated with people who need their down time and like to be alone. His Saturn in the 12th is also implicated in this sort of pattern. His bad track record with women can be seen through the opposition of Venus and Uranus. Hard to have long lasting relationships with that combination. But what is neat is that he has a very tight alignment involving Mercury (writing, thinking), Venus (beauty, aesthetics) and Uranus (originality, rebelliousness). That is likely one reason why he ended up pursuing a career in writing. And with Uranus opposing all those planets we can see his preference to follow his own path on the margins outside the mainstream.
Definitely some plausible lines of explanation there.
mjp
Founding member
Johannes
Founding member
I always loved how astrology can explain everything after it happened.
If this would be a serious system of any kind, shouldn't there be some disagreements at times? I mean, at least to fake up some kind of alibi? Something like, holy fuck, with Venus giving Saturn a blowjob in the 13th house and the Moon strangling himself in the 17th this guy could never have been a poet? How is this possible? He should have been a gay and extroverted butcher or a surgeon with dirty fingernails! What the hell, something is wrong here ...
Somehow you never hear anything like this but only the other weirdo kind.
If this would be a serious system of any kind, shouldn't there be some disagreements at times? I mean, at least to fake up some kind of alibi? Something like, holy fuck, with Venus giving Saturn a blowjob in the 13th house and the Moon strangling himself in the 17th this guy could never have been a poet? How is this possible? He should have been a gay and extroverted butcher or a surgeon with dirty fingernails! What the hell, something is wrong here ...
Somehow you never hear anything like this but only the other weirdo kind.
Black Swan
Abord the Yorikke!
Joannes, you should be in charge of reading our horoscopes,
I like your style. :angelic:
I like your style. :angelic:
Bukfan
"The law is wrong; I am right"
They say it can also tell you about things to come, not that I believe in astrology. To say planets stands for certain concepts is too far out, I think. Funny, how some people like to believe in systems, from astrology to numerology to Scientology to (insert your favorite system here)...
There's actually tons of disagreement among astrologers. There are many ways to interpret a horoscope. This is either a sign of healthy debate or reveals the fact that the system is not robust, depending on your opinion of it all.
I use to think it was complete nonsense until I looked into it for myself. I think there is something going on, although I'm not sure how much. Astrologers tend to exaggerate what they know and what they can predict. In a sense, astrologers are their own worst enemy. As a group, they lack logical thinking and scientific literacy. They are easily fooled by random hits and ignore misses. In their world, everything is meaningful, from full Moons to a crow landing on your front porch. That's the enchanted world they live in.
I can see there is the usual amount of skepticism here, both good natured and hostile. So be it. I know Bukowski thought it was all a "con". I would expect that from someone like him, too. Like a self actualizing person with a strong ego, he rejected the idea that anything could have power over him.
For all those who reject it out of hand, I would just say check it out for yourself. Obviously, the idea that planets millions of miles away exert some influence over us seems completely insane. It goes against everything science knows about gravitational effects and most everything else. But astrologers themselves don't fuss over the mechanisms of how it can work. Most scientists didn't know how aspirin worked either.
Next time transiting Venus is conjoining the position of the Moon when you were born, make a note of what happens. In most cases, it will be pretty good.
We now return to regularly scheduled programming...
Exactly right. People think in terms of systems and categories -- liberal politics, Christianity, you name it. A template through which to view the whole world.
mjp
Founding member
Believing we are the remains of a million dead suns predicates a blossoming pattern of predicative behavior no less than believing we are between the divine spark of God's Alpha and Omega in guiding are behavior. A star that is millions of miles away guiding our behavior is as relative as it is relative as it is relative - from that pain you feel in your knee to the distance between your brain and back again. Time/distance are unavoidably relative concepts. I trust in Free Will.
you'll find a facsimile of the birth-certificate in S0unes' 'Bukowski in p1ctures' on page 22.
But thank you anyway. And don't underestimate the value of a good toothpick when needed! (first date, etc)
ps:
If you actually are into the subject, you sure know, that it definitely DOES make a difference if it's am or pm. The whole horizon is upside-down then. Doesn't matter in terms of the 'slow' planets but sure is important for moon, sun, venus, mars and maybe THE MOST: the ascendent!
he wasn't.
the rest of the known record is right.
But, I must admit, this here is not the right place (site) to discuss things like that.
Just one more thing (to END this from my side):
be aware that the birth certificate does NOT give any minute! It's really only "10 pm", which - especially in terms of the ascendent - can lead to a big buch of misinterpretations! From what the certificate says, we would be somewhere between 9:30 and 10:30 (more or less - maybe even up to 10:59!). I (personally) would refuse to make a birth-horoscope under these conditions.
