Perception of THE DOORS (2 Viewers)

K james.

fact and fiction seem to mesh well.

here's what it reminds me of: The Bad Hemingway Contest.

...known as "The Bad Hemingway Contest," The International Imitation Hemingway Competition is an annual writing competition held in Century City, California. Held for nearly thirty years, the festival pays mock homage to Ernest Hemingway by encouraging authors to submit a humorous "bad" writing in a Hemingway-esque style. Entrants were asked to submit a 'really good page of really bad Hemingway.'

Previous submissions have included such titles as "The Old Man and the Flea," and "The Bug Count also Rises," and "Across the Suburbs and Into the Express Lane," and "The Short, Happy Life of Frances' Comb."

The contest was often sponsored by Harry's Bar & American Grill in in Century City, Calif., as well as the PEN Center West and the contest entrants had two rules: mention Harry's Bar & Grill (the Venetian Harry's was long one of Hemingway's favorite watering holes) and be funny. Prizes were generally round-trip trickets and dinner for two at Harry's in Italy many writers and Hemingway fans were fanatical about the contest.

Hemingway's spare writing style has been often been imitated over the years even before the contest, and two anthologies of Imitation Hemingway have been published (The Best of Bad Hemingway, Volumes I & II) and include contest winners as well as satires of Hemingway written by E. B. White, Raymond Chandler, F. Scott Fitzgerald and George Plimpton.
- wiki

Pax
 
Did Buk ever have much to say about any pop stars specifically?

"death of Hendrix did not bother me. Janis Joplin death particularly saddening, terrible to me because to put it shittily, I related to her. she had the courage of a mountain, understand? don't worry about vocal chords...wrote an 8 or ten page tribute to the guts of Joplin but so filled with love, I had to destroy."

Living on Luck (p117)
 
Buk says in one of the letter books that he wrote a Janis Joplin tribute, but he tore it up because it made him cry. Too bad, I would've loved to read it. I like Janis Joplin a lot...
 
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There are 2 'novels'-probably more that I'm not aware of- Burn Down The Night, by Craig Kee Strete-"An Autobiographical Novel". It is virtually unreadable, completely inane. The other, by beloved Manzarek-The Poet In Exile, is presented as if Morrison is still alive and sending letters to Ray. And get this! The opening quote... "His eyes had gotten kinder. Kindness came finally to the better ones. There was less self interest. Less fear. Less competitive gamesmanship". Charles Bukowski: Hollywood

Holy crap! As I had never managed to get through this one either, and it's been years since I even looked at it, I had no idea until just now that the quote was in there. Wild! CRB:)
 
Yeah. Here you go.
'...abandoning his self-destructive life as a rock God, J had managed to disappear and undertake a private "journey to the East."....he returned to his island hideaway and settled down. A happily married man, the father of 2 children, he had discovered the secret life and was finally free of the demons that had driven him headlong through the American night....Would destiny smile upon the re-launch of one of the most influential rock and roll bands in history?"....
I'll end it. I don't even know what to say.CRB:)
 
I'd prefer gargling with clorox in lieu of reading that tripe.

There isn't a word horrendous enough to describe it. That is was published is bloody miracle. You're fingers must hurt from typing it...as much as my eyes do from reading it.
 
Yes, something certainly hurts!:eek: I was so pissed off at Manzarek for this, it came on the heels of the DOORS2000 fiasco. I know everyone sells out eventually, shit, if Morrison were still alive he would too. But it is just heartbreaking really, that he chose to write some triffling crap, and perpetuate a stupid/needless myth....yeah, yeah...whatever. BigSmiles:DCRB:)
 
Didn't Densmore also write some twaddle about letters to Jim or something?

I can't bear to think about that, either; but it is probably on par with what Manzarek scribbled.

Dishonoring a dead confederate is no way to put more coin in the bank account, continue the myth, or try and keep the diminished light of fame shining.

When your fifteen minutes is up, be glad you had it "” especially when it lasted much longer than that. It's just fucking sad. Ugh.
 
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Densmore wrote at least one book-Riders On The Storm- much more autobiograpical than biographical. He is a big fucking baby throughout the entire thing. As I recall he wrote poems TO Morrison, while working through his angst over their relationship.
He became a new-ager, for Christs sake! I think he went to Oregon to participate in drum circles in a 'healing camp' for Men-or some such shit. The entire book is pretty much him crying about how Morrison 'stole the show.'
Now I am paraphrasing here, it is one of the books I don't have because I simply couldn't stand his immature attitude about the whole thing. I'm sure when those checks roll in everymonth he's a little bit satisfied with the whole result!CRB:)
 
I just went to his "Official Site." I can hear why people accuse him of drum machine status. OK, so it's jazz now, but fuck, many jazz drummers are great. Among the finest in the world. And keep it all together; the fucking backbone.

Don't know him, and have nothing against him, but damn, you're right. The checks probably come in pretty damn handy every month. And they ain't slowin' down. It's no longer music, but a franchise.

Time to get off the poor me soapbox and fess up. Mojo didn't like you. You didn't like him. Without Mojo, you'd be what? That must eat at him daily... And possibly a reason why he writes about it; some sort of self-pity, self-discovery, self-help bullshit. (Maybe that's in his book; I will never read it. I no longer own gerbils.)

Again, without Mojo, where would he be? Who would he have been?

Certainly not Bonzo. (Not that being dead is a good thang ;)).
 
Certainly NOT bonzo!
I have never dug the whole woe is me crap from anyone. Cowboy up motherfucker-and while your at it shut up and leave me alone!(Yeah, I'm a mom:eek:heehee). Credit to you for even going to his site. I couldn't, not even if my curiosity was getting the better of me. I just do not like the way he presented himself in that book. I always felt that if Jim were alive, Densmore would have never had the balls to say what he said, and to me, that spells=FAKE.CRB:)
 
Certainly NOT bonzo! Cowboy up motherfucker-and while your at it shut up and leave me alone! I just do not like the way he presented himself in that book. I always felt that if Jim were alive, Densmore would have never had the balls to say what he said, and to me, that spells=FAKE.CRB:)

You go girl.

Passion = cool.

And I hear what you're saying. To many gutless twerps never have the balls to say what they feel. Or mask it with whitewash. Or wait until someone is gone, and then get out the fucking sledge hammer.

I've always been afraid to speak my mind. And try to keep it neat and clean, hiding behind good manners. :eek:

What did you think of Stone's movie? And Kilmer playing Mojo?
 
Kilmer was perfect, hands down. He is fascinating to watch. The film itself,(IMO) was fluff. Stone told alot of lies, or at least chose to present certain things/events fictionally. I never understood this. Anyone that was/is a fan of The Doors could see this instantly!(ie-the way he presented the ED Sullivan show situation.) I didn't really like whats-her-name as Pam either.CRB:)
 
I gotta defend Densmore, again big fan of the Doors moderate fan of Densmore.

Taste is always subjective, I can't stand Bonham but I understand his talent. Densmore is technically, a very fine drummer and for the sixities he was probably one of the best rock ones.

And as far as making a buck off Morrison he has been the one who doesn't want to sell the songs for commercials and fought and won against the other two remaining Doors to make them discontinue using the name (they're now Riders On The Storm). Everyone can guess what Morrison would do now but he was against commercial use while he was still alive (he nixed having Light My Fire for a car commercial).

By the way the Doors had a legal agreement of equal partners and everyone agreeing on something to make it happen.

In light of this it would appear to me that Densmore is Morrisons only true friend as he is holding up his wishes.
 
Kilmer was perfect, hands down.
Agreed. Kilmer nailed it. Spooky good.

And I thought Manzarek and Krieger were well represented by their respective actor choices. Damn, Ray looked like Ray (IMO). Like you, I still have a bit of a bone in my throat over JD, so I won't comment. How does one act like a drum machine? JK.

The Stone cameo was funny; during the LA Film school scene. Also, that remake of Mojo's film piece wasn't accurate, I believe. Anyone here know? I'm sure it was partly correct, but embellished for the silver screen.

And Pamela Morrison, I thought, wasn't bad. Perhaps not my first choice for an actress, but who would have been better? Perhaps an unknown?

I also liked Billy Idol in the movie. Some street cred.

I'm not up on all the facts that were misrepresented in the movie, but knowing how Stone does all his movies, there must have been more than a few "creative" interpretations taken.

Overall, I thought the film worked.

And, as entertainment, I didn't mind paying the seven bucks or so to see it. Worth every cent. I went with a bunch of Doors' nuts who really gave it high marks. Kilmer certainly influenced the nods. And, of course the music "” even though some of the overdubbing seemed a bit forced and surreal.

I give the movie a thumbs up. And own it on DVD, as I do "Barfly." The only difference? I own "Barfly" on VHS, too.

I gotta defend Densmore.
You may be in the minority here.

After the fact doesn't always work in my lexicon.

Ask A-Rod. There's a tin feeling to the words...

Especially when the bank account if flush. Morals are quite easy to have, then...

I'm all for the COWBOY UP line of thinking. But maybe he's done that?

As mjp whiteboarded, imagine Mojo with a different rock band?

Imagine The Doors, with a different drummer? Not sure if it mattered, relative to the work they created...but if you bring in Jimmy Page, or Hendrix, well, Densmore would have to go. I don't think he would have fit. He may have been parking cars, or teaching classes in transcendental meditation. Who knows? Perhaps he would have been part of another rock band, that had even more success? This is like fantasy football, which I don't know much about or play. But fun to ponder...

And, in closing, Densmore was part of The Doors who released the album (I got it on 8-track, I'm embarrassed to say), OTHER VOICES.

Man, that sucked.

And has the numbing beat of selective integrity. For all of them, including Mr. Densmore.
 
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slimedog, you are right that Densmore has been one fighting against the sale off of certain rights. I am fully aware of the fact that The Doors recorded as a group, with rights attributed to ALL members. But much of this has been made moot since the rights automatically transfered to the Morrison and Coursen families after their deaths. (As far as I know, the courts STILL recognize Jim's and Pam's commen law marriage). Money is going places where maybe Densmore does not want it to go?? He also complained,(i believe in his own book), that he was unhappy/unfullfilled with the drumming he was 'allowed' to do with The Doors.
I know that I'm talking some shit here. I DO LOVE the music of the doors; even though I have never particularly liked the circus. It is simple for me, years ago I read Densmore's book and it left a puke-ish taste in my mouth. IMO he is a baby and a New-Age fake.(& yes, i have some issues with the NewAgers!)
It does not mean that I am not about to put 'Morrison Hotel' into my CD player and be VERY happy about it! CRB:)
 
Just to explain a little about how money is divided in a band, normally the writers of the song get a good load of the money i.e Jagger and Richards get more than say Charlie Watts. With the Doors there agreement was a four way even split so that even though Densmore didn't write any songs he gets a fourth of all related revenue as do the other three (or family members). I remember several years ago but long after they broke up, they were selling a million albums a year. That's a pretty good take with no studio time, advertisement expense etc.

As far as imagining Morrison with hard rock players, well, at the time there were few bands like Zeppelin, Sabbath or Hendrix and heavy metal had not even started. If you took music lessons in the sixties your teachers had grown up before rock so you got taught by jazz players(wh had learned in the fifties or before)-so it's not surprising that a lot of sixties players had folk or jazz influences as the Doors did and many other bands of the time.

Densmore had a jazz style, guitarist Kreiger had learned folk and flamenco, Manzarek had classical, jazz & blues influence. They were all considered very good musicians and Morrison had said how much he appreciated them (considering how he "performed" sometimes, I guess he should!) Morrison liked the blues best, I doubt he would've made any hard rock albums if he survived. For me the band was perfect though individually none are my favorite players.

The three musician Doors were hippies that eventually turned into new age pretty much, again not a surprise from the time they came from, but I certainly loved the music they made.
 
As far as imagining Morrison with hard rock players, well, at the time there were few bands like Zeppelin, Sabbath or Hendrix and heavy metal had not even started.
Well it's just imagining, isn't it? But Hendrix played at the Monterey Pop Festival the year the first Doors album came out, so there was certainly a few years of overlap. By the time Morrison died, all the "heavy" bands had released their first, and sometimes second, albums.

I wouldn't want to see Morrison front any of those bands. I'm just saying the players were there, the influences were there, and the Marshall stacks were there. He went the way he went - the jazz rock hippie route - and the noise clowns went in another direction. The two were not destined to meet up.
 
If anyone wants to read a well researched bio on Morrison, I recommend, The Lizard King Was Here, by Mark Opsasnick. It deals with his high school years in Alexandria Virginia. The author interviews classmates and friends of Jim's from that period and you get a very interesting picture of him before rock stardom. In a lot of ways, it's more interesting than later bios, which are usually just all the same hype and myth over and over.
 
What about the grade-school friends "” and pre-pubescent school teachers?

How did Mojo play with his blocks in kindergarten?

When the fuck does it end?

At some point, the investigation and information (reporting) becomes cackle.

Not at u, b-ville; but the written stories have to end, and the music, endure...
 
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full disclosure

for CRBSMILE

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I've always been intrigued with Morrison the poet. I was wondering how highly regarded was his verse in the early days, pre-doors?

With the Doors, Morrisons lyrics to me have always seemed clumsy. They tend to fit the music quite well but they don't stand alone compared with lyricists like Dylan or Morrissey. There are some obvious examples in Riders On The Storm which though a beautiful song is filled with some absolute lyrical clangers.

Riders on the storm
Riders on the storm
Into this house were born
Into this world were thrown
Like a dog without a bone

An actor out on loan
Riders on the storm

Theres a killer on the road
His brain is squirmin like a toad
Take a long holiday
Let your children play
If ya give this man a ride
Sweet memory will die
Killer on the road, yeah
 
There's a book about The Doors, "Light My Fire", written by Ray Manzarek. It a good read, I think. In it, Manzarek attacks Oliver Stone for his Doors film. He also wrtes a lot about his friendship with Jim Morrison, and about Morrison's darker self-destructive side...
 
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Not at u, b-ville; but the written stories have to end, and the music, endure...
I don't know. I think for some artists, their real art is how (out of the box) they live their lives--the stuff of great stories. Morrison to me is one of those artists. Rimbaud--another. I can't even get halfway through a Season in Hell, but I've plowed through numerous Rimbaud Bios.

Sometimes the artist is just more interesting than their art.
 
That's a good point. Sometimes the life of an artist can overshadow or bring attention the art. So I humbly agree. With a caveat: if the art doesn't measure up "” it doesn't matter how interesting the story or legend or myth "” it's still trash.

A great bio doesn't mean the art is great. But as for Mojo and Arthur, sure, I can viddy your point. No doubt.

Pax
 
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True. The art has to measure up. I've found it usually does though. If someone lives their life in an original, no holds barred sort of way, their art usually reflects it, even if it's not always my cup of tea (i.e. glass of scotch) : )
 
There's a book about The Doors, "Light My Fire", written by Ray Manzarek. It a good read, I think. In it, Manzarek attacks Oliver Stone for his Doors film. He also wrtes a lot about his friendship with Jim Morrison, and about Morrison's darker self-destructive side...

I think, legend has it, Densmore was on the dime for the film as a consultant, or whatever, and Manzarek and Krieger read the script and passed on it. Don't know for sure, sorry, so no flames, please. Or fill in the proper info.

I do remember hearing Manzarek calling Stone, "Evil."

I can understand his POV, as there were some unflattering scenes in the movie, think Thanksgiving at the Morrison's (fly on that wall?). And, well, he lived through it all. First hand.

Also, the "Come on Buick Light My Fire" at the studio scene...(hope I got it right, if not see above apology).

Celluloid = perception = truth to many fans.

So I can see him being pissed off.

But Manzarek's writing, well, I haven't read; won't. I have the music. And when it's over, I turn out the lights...

(BTW: Nice collection Hooch. Way fucking cool. Can I give you my Fedex number,too? Seems like we lost Johnny of Chicago...)

Pax
 
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I can understand his POV, as there were some unflattering scenes in the movie

Right. He attacks the way Morrison's college film was portrayed (mis-represented) with all the nazi stuff. Stone also altered Doors performance at the Ed Sullivan TV show, where they sang, "Light My Fire". Sullivan made them change the words about getting "higher", but in Stones'film "Morrison the rebel" sings the word "higher" anyway in opposition to Sullivan's guidelines. But actually Doors followed Sullivan's guidelines and deleted the word "higher" from the song.
 
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I'm going to respectfully disagree with one point. Mojo did sing the word higher on the Ed Sullivan show. I have it on 1/2 inch. He actually screams it in a close-up. Funny as hell, as the tape I have shows Ed (seemingly) pointing his finger at Mojo, kinda wagging it, like the old fuck he was. Again, a very tame word by today's standards.

I think you are thinking of the Stones, who did change a word for Ed. Wasn't it "Let's Spend Some Time Together" in lieu of The Night???

Pax,

homeless mind
 
Yep, agree completely: that great line "Into this world we're thrown" followed by that clinker: Like a dog without a bone?
 
this is what one martin esslin has to say in the first chapter of his book on artaud. i believe morrison was somewhat somehow influenced by him.

"...it is by no means easy to say into which of the recognised categories of achievement his contribution falls. He is not a thinker who could be thought of as having produced a coherent body of new knowledge or to have opened up new fields of inquiry; nor was he a doer, a man of action, a hero who has shaped events, influenced the course of history; and while, undoubtedly, he was a poet of great power, it is not his poetry that accounts for his influence. His writings about the theatre have had considerable influence, but his actual work in that sphere is generally acknowledged to have been a failure, so that he must be regarded as an inspiration for the work of others rather than a great director in his own right. In this he resembles those powerful figures who, while not producing anything like a tangible, verifiable system of thought, act as catalysts and stimulators for others by opening up new areas of speculation and directing the atttention towards new modes of seeing - prophets of new visions like Nietzsche of Marshall McLuhan...'
Artaud, I feel, is, above all, an example of another, more mysterious type of personality with major influence and impact: one of those masters who impact arises not so much from what they have achieved and done in concrete, tangible terms, but rather from what they are and what they havesuffered. The influence of powerful figures of this type ultimately derives from the image of themselves they have left behind and which has, somehow, mysteriously, become the encapsulated embodiment, clear, compressed, immediately apprehended, of a whole complex of attitudes, ideas and precepts contained within that image."

But actually Doors followed Sullivan's guidelines and deleted the word "higher" from the song.

^ I'm going to respectfully disagree with one point. Mojo did sing the word higher on the Ed Sullivan show. I have it on 1/2 inch. He actually screams it in a close-up.
 
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Yes, but a dog without a bone is a sad and lonely creature...isn't it?:confused: Agreed, it's a simple and cheesy line. I sat here last night getting nice and high and listened to The Doors. I simply cannot help it- I LOVE THE DOORS! I think many of their popular songs, the ones that still get radio play tend to overshadow some of the really great stuff that you don't hear unless you have the albums.
Peace Frog
Been down so long
The Wasp(Texas Radio and The Big Beat)
When The Musics Over
Build Me A Woman
Gloria

The poetry of Morrison is something I've always wondered about. Much of it was unedited by Morrison, and most is pretty raw. I'm speaking specificaly of the 2 vols. of the Wilderness collection. I've always wondered if he would of put more work into the poems if he had not died.
There is an interesting book- Rimbaud And Morrison, The Rebel As Poet, by Wallace Fowlie. A great look at both poets with some very interesting comparisons. Thanx for the pics Hooch! Very nice indeed!CRB:)
 
this is what one martin esslin has to say in the first chapter of his book on artaud. i believe morrison was somewhat somehow influenced by him.

"...it is by no means easy to say into which of the recognised categories of achievement his contribution falls. [...]"
TOGP:

Thanks for posting. That's really fascinating.

Especially, "The influence of powerful figures of this type ultimately derives from the image of themselves they have left behind and which has, somehow, mysteriously, become the encapsulated embodiment, clear, compressed, immediately apprehended, of a whole complex of attitudes, ideas and precepts contained within that image."

While I haven't read much Artaud, I have always wanted to do the deep dive. Perhaps it's time.

And isn't fucking cool how one writer can write about another writer(s) "” and we can interpret and form opinions/observations about other writers from that?

Again, thanks for sharing. Methinks I've got some reading/homework to do.

(Snip)
The poetry of Morrison is something I've always wondered about.
I read the books, when they came out, and never read them again. I'll never forget how excited I was, and how disappointed I was.

Therein lies a good question: where does poetry start/stop and lyrics begin? I think Bob (Dylan) is the only one who ever really blurred the lines and made it work.

But back to "Wilderness." I put 'em down; then, put on a Doors' album, Morrison Hotel (or the like), poured a stiff drink, and forgot about them "” and remembered. To this day, I don't even know where they are. But my cds are at my fingertips.

And as for the line, Like A Dog Without A Bone, it gets followed by the equally mundane, An Actor Out On Loan...

Hmmm. Not quite what one would expect from Mojo, who dug and read so many great writers. But, not every lyric or poem is great. So he gets a pass from me on this one. :D

Pax
 
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Therein lies a good question: where does poetry start/stop and lyrics begin? I think Bob (Dylan) is the only one who ever really blurred the lines and made it work.
I like Bob Dylan (he's punk rock), but there is no way in hell any of his lyrics would stand alone as good poetry. We've gone through the argument here before, but I believe that once you have heard the songs, you can't separate the words from the music. So it would seem to follow that you can't judge the words on their own.

Go to his web site, all his lyrics are there. Choose some from some later obscure record that you never bothered to listen to and tell me how much poetry you find there. At any point that you do think, "Yeah, this is poetry," imagine that Bukowski wrote the words. Would you consider it one of his great - or even good - works, or just filler?

Lyrics are lyrics, they aren't supposed to be poems, and vice versa. That is why poets who try to set their writing to music after the fact are so embarrassingly awful (hello Jim Carroll, you overhyped sack of shit!).

Of course, your mileage may vary. What is art, anyway?

;)
 

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