Perception of THE DOORS (2 Viewers)

Time to feed the midgets who claim to be my offspring. The Hunger! The Hunger! I will digest and respond. But at first blush, you need to let me know who Jim Carroll is/was? Was he a poet? A rocker? A fashion casualty? Or just some formerly drugged out fuck-up who needs SEO/SEM help? However, I do like basketball. ;)

I like Bob Dylan (he's punk rock), but there is no way in hell any of his lyrics would stand alone as good poetry.
Punk rock? Is that bait? Do I look like the elusive Southern game fish, the Snook? :p:eek:

Go to his web site, all his lyrics are there.
The lyrics, as you know, as plastered all over the web. But thanks. :D

Choose some from some later obscure record that you never bothered to listen to and tell me how much poetry you find there. At any point that you do think, "Yeah, this is poetry," imagine that Bukowski wrote the words. Would you consider it one of his great - or even good - works, or just filler?
What would you consider an obscure later record? Gold or platinum? I don't think he can come out with one that doesn't resonate with his fan base; however, I am not a fan of all the works. Like Vincent or even Buk, there are dogs in the mix. Can't hunt.

Lyrics are lyrics, they aren't supposed to be poems, and vice versa. That is why poets who try to set their writing to music after the fact are so embarrassingly awful (hello Jim Carroll, you overhyped sack of shit!).
Here, you make sense. Can't argue with your example. And you are probably spot on, with the Ivory soap % ringing true.

However, methinks Dylan is the exception to the rule. I get where you can't separate the song lyrics from the song; yes, I hear it while I'm reading it. It's that good. Memorable.

But I would argue strongly that some are pure poetic genius.

As follows, here are two gems:

Mr. Tambourine Man
Subterranean Homesick Blues


On that note:

[Snip lyrics to Subterranean Homesick Blues - they are plastered all over the web. ;)]

Not to be too agreeable, but dad-gum, FUCK, you are so right. As pre-stated, I can't read it without hearing it. Never thought about that...

But that doesn't mean it doesn't transcend the "lyric" moniker and dock in the poetry section of my warped cranium.

Now, to your question about art...let me get out the smokey johnny blue. Damn you're good. You must've posted here once or twice before. And could probably get a paying gig as a shrink. What's your hourly rate? Or is it by the delusion?

Pax

b
 
I like Bob Dylan (he's punk rock)...

homeless mind said:
Punk rock? Is that bait?

Without a doubt, Dylan was the first punk rocker; a full decade ahead of time. Too many people confuse the term punk with a certain genre of "music" (had to get that in, sorry) referred to as punk rock, wothout thinking about what punk really means.

Punk means having no regard for establishment, authority or one's audience (in addition to a few other things). No '60s musician was more punk than Dylan on his 1966 UK tour. Just listen to The Bootleg Series Vol 4.

I'm not sure of mjp remembers that I probably wrote this a while ago here and is taking the Mickey or if he agrees, but either way, Dylan was the first punk musician. :D
 
Robert Johnson was the first punk and lyrics ain't poetry, no matter who writes them. and they shouldn't be, they are here to serve a different function.
 
I'm not sure of mjp remembers that I probably wrote this a while ago here and is taking the Mickey or if he agrees, but either way, Dylan was the first punk musician. :D
I agree. I've always maintained that he is. He won't even play his songs the same way twice. I'm with you.

Joe Strummer said, "Punk rock isn't something you grow out of, Punk rock is like the Mafia, and once you're made, you're made. Punk rock is an attitude, and the essence of the attitude is, 'give us some truth.'" And I can't argue with that or say it any better.

Robert Johnson was the first punk and lyrics ain't poetry, no matter who writes them.
Woke up this mornin', all my shrimps was dead and gone...

Mozart was the first punk.
No man, Gutenberg. He was all, "I can't get my ideas out to my peeps!" And some guy was like, "Have monks make manuscripts for you." And Gutenberg was all, "Fuck that, I'll print them myself. Where's the nearest Kinkos?" And dudes were all, "Wha?" And Gutenberg goes, "Shit, this is going to take longer than I thought..."

That's what I read on wikipedia, anyway.
 
Howard's Sounes biography talks about Buk's friendship with Steve Richmond (who left his law studies to open a bookshop specialised in poetry, so impressed he was by Buk's work) but there is nothing about Buk's and Morrison's potential links.

As I am living in France and very near Paris, I like wandering in the Pére Lachaise cemetery once or twice a year. Each time, I notice that Morrison's tombstone is definitely the greatest "attraction" of the cemetery ; it's amazing to see all the tourists walking with excitation toward it and going into ecstacies when having reached their goal. The first time I visited it, I was with two friends and we got lost while trying to find it. We met a young man wearing a Doors tee-shirt and he led us to it, explaining us he was in Paris since three months and that he came here everyday for his dear Morrison. A clinical case (and yet he looked sane) ?
 
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Howard's Sounes biography talks about Buk's friendship with Steve Richmond (who left his law studies to open a bookshop specialised in poetry, so impressed he was by Buk's work) but there is nothing about Buk's and Morrison's potential links.

Sounes makes mistakes and then will fight you to the death to defend his errors. Yes, he is a good biographer, but he is not PERFECT. When an error is pointed out, he denies that he could be wrong. So, if you believe his lack of attention to it, then there was no relationship between Richmond and Morrison, but if you believe Richmond and his friends, who saw Jim Morrison hanging out at Earth Books in Santa Monica with Steve Richmond then I guess you have to agree that Sounes did not mention it because he missed it, or thought that it was not important enough to include it. Of course, I would not expect him to write about every friend of a friend of Buk. The book was about Bukowski, not friends of friends of Bukowski. Frankly, I think that it should not be mentioned in a bio of Bukowski. A bio of Richmond, of course, but that was not what he was writing....

Bill
 
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Without a doubt, Dylan was the first punk rocker; a full decade ahead of time. Too many people confuse the term punk with a certain genre of "music" (had to get that in, sorry) referred to as punk rock, wothout thinking about what punk really means.
Still trying to wrap my head around this thinking. Seeing how the term punk wasn't used until the mid '70s. Save for those things I used to light up to ignite fire-crackers, or, what kids were called in a non-flattering way (this has to be part of the root of the definition). Not sure I will ever agree. But understanding a POV doesn't need agreement.

Punk means having no regard for establishment, authority or one's audience (in addition to a few other things). No '60s musician was more punk than Dylan on his 1966 UK tour. Just listen to The Bootleg Series Vol 4.
How about The Doors' concert (attempt) in New Haven, Conn.? I've either heard or read that Mojo is considered by some to be the father of punk. I can't wrap my head around that either...Sid and Nancy, please come over to the Morrison house for Thanksgiving. We're going to be doing some acid, then reading some Percy Bysshe and Mary. Then, we're going to wreck the house. So don't worry about not being able to read...you can help with the latter.

Mozart was the first punk.
That's actually very funny. And probably accurate, dependent upon definition.
 
Still trying to wrap my head around this thinking. Seeing how the term punk wasn't used until the mid '70s.
I think what we're saying is that punk is an attitude, not a style of music. It could have been named something else 100 years ago, because there were punks then too. It just happened to stick to that particular term at that particular time.
 
I agree that punk music had a lot to do with attitude but I think it was a definite style of music from a certain time and people like Dylan had nothing to do with it and hardly any influence. I know a lot of punk folks were influenced by Buk but I wouldn't call him one and I'm sure he'd want nothing to do with it.

Now, Morrison not a punk but according to Iggy Pop he started singing after seeing a particulary bad performance in Michigan by him and thought hell, he could do at least as good as that.

The Doors played at Boston Arena in 69, 70 and an older friend saw it & said as they were waiting in line to get in a drunk Morrison behind a glass partition was yelling at the crowd, "You suckers!"

I won't claim Morrison as a punk but that's a move worthy of John Lydon- who at the time when he was displaying his hatred for all established bands actually said he liked the Doors in an interview.
 
I agree that punk music had a lot to do with attitude but I think it was a definite style of music from a certain time...
Do you think the Clash were a punk band? Assuming the answer is 'yes' (and if it's not, we're in the wrong thread, or on the wrong planet) let me ask you what "definite style of music" that is on London Calling, or Sandinista! Because I sure as hell couldn't describe it using one pigeonhole.

It doesn't matter how SST records, those kids with the giant stand up Mowhawks, Avril Lavigne or Blink 182 define punk. It was defined by the people who started it, and they were all over the map in terms of styles and influences.
 
I think what we're saying is that punk is an attitude, not a style of music. It could have been named something else 100 years ago, because there were punks then too. It just happened to stick to that particular term at that particular time.

Guess I just got punk'd.

From that crow's nest, I see what you're saying.


You aren't married to Demi Moore, are you?
 
Do you think the Clash were a punk band? Assuming the answer is 'yes' (and if it's not, we're in the wrong thread, or on the wrong planet) let me ask you what "definite style of music" that is on London Calling, or Sandinista! Because I sure as hell couldn't describe it using one pigeonhole.

It doesn't matter how SST records, those kids with the giant stand up Mowhawks, Avril Lavigne or Blink 182 define punk. It was defined by the people who started it, and they were all over the map in terms of styles and influences.

I agree that the original punk bands had a lot of individuality, Lydon likes to point that out when dissing the cookie cutter punk bands of today, but still there is a definitive style of what punk music is just like there are definitions of country rock, heavy metal etc.

What bugs me is people seem to apply that punk was just an attitude/philosophy or fad and had nothing to do with musical innovation. The band that really created and is probably the most influential is the Ramones. You would not have to see a picture of them to know something radical was going on, especially at the time. It was the most shocking album I'd heard because-songs were two minutes long, lyrics was sometimes 3 lines, and NO GUITAR SOLOS!

So it sometimes apears people think it was just guys with weird hairdos being obnoxious but it's not the case.

So when people say Dylan or Cash or whomever was a punk, you can argue in attitude but no they did not make punk music or would they want to be considered that way. No one would take a heavy metal band and say "Oh, but they're country rock in spirit."

And the Clash first album is punk after that they became a rock band or at least made music that would mostly fall in other catergories.
 
It seems, Morrison and Bukowski even published poetry in the same mag in 1971, if I got it right:

--> http://search.abaa.org/dbp2/book350417794.html


Plus, they did meet :)

--> http://www.geocities.com/jimmozz/buk.htm

Shit, I can't believe that site still exists. It must be older than I.

I gotta defend Densmore, again big fan of the Doors moderate fan of Densmore.

Taste is always subjective, I can't stand Bonham but I understand his talent. Densmore is technically, a very fine drummer and for the sixities he was probably one of the best rock ones.

And as far as making a buck off Morrison he has been the one who doesn't want to sell the songs for commercials and fought and won against the other two remaining Doors to make them discontinue using the name (they're now Riders On The Storm). Everyone can guess what Morrison would do now but he was against commercial use while he was still alive (he nixed having Light My Fire for a car commercial).

By the way the Doors had a legal agreement of equal partners and everyone agreeing on something to make it happen.

In light of this it would appear to me that Densmore is Morrisons only true friend as he is holding up his wishes.

I'm gonna defend Densmore also. I thought Riders On The Storm was very honest and straightforward. Very little bullshit. Reflective on how sad it is to see a close friend sink into alcoholism with little you can do about it. As far as the "new-agey" thing is concerned, I know he started reading a lot of Joseph Campbell which deals with mythologies. I recommend The Power Of Myth. There's no new-age crap in that.
 
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i never knew morrison or the doors personally but i did dance live to them the night i auditioned for a go-go grl job at Whisky (knew elmer valentine, a good Bossman, slightly); in the 60s i preferred Soul Music, easier to dance to Otis Redding, Wilson Picket, Aretha Franklin; the Doors too complex and deep geniusly l o n g..the night i met morrison he was stoned and stinky, wearing wrinkled jeans; i was a square, waiting for a prince to find me;later i began to love the Doors and today have their orig 1st album framed hanging on the wall near my bukowski head..
 
And I've read all the Morrison books

gagaku

jim morrison sat in this room
once told me how I
ruined a good poem

"just like ginsberg," said jim,
"a good poem and right in the middle a turd"

he was talking about form
and then I read his poems
but never got to tell him

jim died in paris of an overdose they say
they say he was in a bath-tub
smiling

dead
and grinning

broken on through

the face of the dead is more relaxed than the
supposed living face

this is a fact

© Steve Richmond

Note: this is not the original lay-out of the poem.
 
I do; on 8-Track.
It will make a comeback, trust me...:eek:

That ranks as the worst post-death-frontman album ever made.

Bar none.

It sits right next to the books that (fill in the words here) to make $$$$.
 
Bruno, The Soft Parade (song) is overrated. As a lifelong Doors' fan, I cringe when I hear it. The writing is bad, the concept is bad; it was if they were trying to take The End and When The Music's Over and put 'em in a blender, with some John Lennon lyrics, and create something retread/new.

Other than that, it really kicks ass...

Pax
 
This is weird. There is an author, TRACY DUNHAM, who wrote 2 novels titled after Doors songs. Wishful Sinful and Yes, The River Knows. They're like kitschy mysteries. No, I've not read them. Saw them a while back and was just reminded yesterday. Thought I'd drop it on you. CRB:)
 
Hello, CRB!

Sound like great titles.

For Doors' songs...:eek:

Have you read any of her works? Who knows, maybe she's the cat's pajamas.

For mysteries, I turn to EAP.

I get broken after that...

Pax
 
Bruno, The Soft Parade (song) is overrated. As a lifelong Doors' fan, I cringe when I hear it. The writing is bad, the concept is bad; it was if they were trying to take The End and When The Music's Over and put 'em in a blender, with some John Lennon lyrics, and create something retread/new.
I meant the album by the way. The song itself is a bit dodgy.
 
Let's talk turkey, which Ben Franklin wanted as America's bird, in lieu of the eagle.

The song sucks. And the album is quite mediocre.

It was a let-down to most Doors' fans. As the music was weak, and the lyrics weaker. "Touch Me" "”"” Doesn't ignite my fire -- Let's Get fucking real.

Here's my "Shaman Blues"

Drink some more and head on out to LA.

Yeah, baby.

LA WOMAN!

Now that fucking rocks the house.

On Sunday afternoons....driving through your suburbs, into your blues...

Pax
 
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Not a huge Doors fan and I hope I am not opening up new interest in this thread. But this is supposedly the piece in which Tom Robbins says he found his voice as a writer. (this is a reprint in Underground Digest - Vol. 1, No. 2 - 1967). I'm not a big Tom Robbins fan either, but for posterity...

IMG_20160704_0010a.jpg
 
That's great, thanks for posting!

This review sounds slightly weird lol.

I mean it comes across in the same way try hard as say the other "underground counterculture writers" in Sunlight Here I Am for example. Guys like Don Strachan (p. 63) or Ric Reynolds (p. 73). Like some young douchebag with probably the best intentions, but very much high on himself.

On the other hand and with the benefit of historical distance, say a parent found this review about this popular band his teenage daughter was into and it begins with: "Their style is early cunnilingual with overtones of the Massacre of the Innocents. An electrified sex slaughter."

They'd probably believed the decline of the west had arrived . Which might be exactly the reason why their teenage daughter wanted to go see The Doors :D
 
That's a great price for vintage prints. I would think that these are worth more than that, just based on what you have to pay for a real print of most famous musicians or bands. It will be a good score for a Doors fan.
 

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