Question of Values...

Carterofmars

Over 100 posts
Lets begin by saying that everything BUK is priceless! This we all know. And, of course we all know that any given object is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it at any given point in time.

That being said...


I have "A Comprehensive Price Guide and Check List" By Al Fogel, I know this prices contained must be outdated. But, by how much? Is there a consensus as to approx how much may be added to those prices this year? 10%- 20%... more?

Has this guide been updated?



Thanks for any info.


joe
 

chronic

old and in the way
Over 1000 posts
Fogel's price guide is useful in that it lists a lot of periodicals that were not listed elsewhere, but the prices listed were his estimates of the values and not really accurate even when it was published in 2000. It would be completely inaccurate now and really shouldn't be considered when determining prices.

Your best bet for arriving at a value for a given book is to keep tabs on ABE and Ebay to see what the average sale price is. This will usually give you a good ballpark figure.
 

Carterofmars

Over 100 posts
That used to be my best option until ebay limited the completed auction search to only the past 2 weeks.

And ABe seems to have values for one given title for anywhere from 10.00 to 10,000.00. It seems that book sellers just sometimes throw a title out there for a ridculous amount inhopes that they get a mark to bite.
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
Over 5000 posts
Hi Joe,
Add 14.2% to all prices and you are there!

No, really. The guide is very good, especially as a checklist, but there are some items that were incorrect at the time of publication. Then there are some items that have become more scarce, or some items where a cache of once scarce items shows up (Peace Amongst The Ants is a perfect example). The best thing to do is look at the price and then look on abe and see what comparable copies go for.

With high end items, the market is soft. Probably something to do with the shitty economy. Books that Fogel lists for $2000, and may be worth every penny of that $2k are not always getting bids at half that. I have a HB, signed, numbered copy of the "Big White Book (Bukowski Photographs 1977-91)", It sold for $275 in 1993 from the publisher directly, Fogel lists it for $225, abe has it for about $1300, I could not sell mine for $700, yet one sold at PBA, I think for over $1300.

It is a strange business, I tells ya...

Bill
 

chronic

old and in the way
Over 1000 posts
That used to be my best option until ebay limited the completed auction search to only the past 2 weeks.
You're right. If I remember correctly you used to be able to pull up 90 days worth of listings, then 30 days. They seem to have realized that people were using the site to do research, so, of course, now you have to pay for the privilege.

If you check it regularly though you can still keep a running tabulation of general prices.
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
Over 5000 posts
Or run it by the group. If it is something that you want, but don't want to show your hand, go ahead and PM me. I have most everything that is not too expensive. In other words, if I can afford it, I have it. If I am missing it, I cannot usually afford it anyway...

Best,
Bill
 

Carterofmars

Over 100 posts
Thanks for the response Bill.

ABE seems to have such a wide range of values for any one given item. So much so I was afraid to rely on it for value. B-bay is the same way with its Buy-It-Now.

Let me ask you... do you agree with Collecting Bukowski's web site:

The best way that I've found is to take the range of prices from sites like ABE and watch ebay for sales of that title (though many of the truly rare titles never turn up on Ebay or are priced so high by the seller that they don't sell). The real value of the book will usually be somewhere between the two. If a book is listed at an average of $500 on ABE and typically sells for around $250 on ebay, a realistic value for that book would probably be around $350-400 assuming that the books are in similar condition.

joe
 

chronic

old and in the way
Over 1000 posts
Yeah, I agree with Bill. Ask here and I'm sure someone will be able to give you a fairly accurate estimate.
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
Over 5000 posts
Carterofmars said:
Thanks Bill... that's much appreciated. I'll try not to hound you too often.

Can I ask you what you thinkof this from the "Collecting Bukowski" web site:

The best way that I've found is to take the range of prices from sites like ABE and watch ebay for sales of that title (though many of the truly rare titles never turn up on Ebay or are priced so high by the seller that they don't sell). The real value of the book will usually be somewhere between the two. If a book is listed at an average of $500 on ABE and typically sells for around $250 on ebay, a realistic value for that book would probably be around $350-400 assuming that the books are in similar condition.

thanks again... joe

The guy who runs collectingbukowski.com rocks! Yes, I agree with him, although I'll gladly take the book at the low price and consider it a value..

Bill
 

Carterofmars

Over 100 posts
I have a copy of "Second Coming" Vol 2, no 3. The copy is definitely in FINE condition.



Any idea as to value on this?


thanks

joe
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
Over 5000 posts
Hi,
Is Buk on the cover of that one? Is he inside?

A.D. Winans was selling some of these issues recently for a pretty low price. I'm not sure if that one was an issue that he was selling, but I usually pay about $10- $15 a piece for issues of Second Coming. I'm tying to complete a set, so I may need that one. If I do, then the value just went up a bit, eh?

Bill
 

jordan

lothario speedwagon
Over 1000 posts
i've put a lot of thought into this question (that of how ebay affects determination of a book's market value), and i think of it this way: abebooks is generally the best guide for a book's market value, and the book can reasonably be expected to fetch somewhere between 50 and 150% of that value on ebay. (the exception to this is when there's only one copy of something on ebay, since that's more like price-setting than realistic market value.) ebay is too unpredictable to serve as a realistic price indicator, unless you are looking to see what the value of a particular book is this week versus its value in general. also, because ebay auctions only go for a week or 10 days, it is hard to gauge demand, and thus value, for the book. it's only worth what someone will pay for it, but you have to give it enough time on the market to attract enough potential buyers before you really know how much that is. plus, the whole "me want me must get me must win" (MWMMGMMW) mentality on ebay makes determining prices too difficult.

a good example of this is a numbered copy of the night torn mad with footsteps that i just sold for $90 on eBay... almost 2x what it can be found for on abebooks. same with an italian art book i sold for $200, even while copies for $60 (albeit +$40 in shipping) are available. AND, that book is still in print... so what is its value? the 44 euro published price, or the insanely inflated price on ebay? but, other times i have seen people get reamed- like when a numbered copy of Bone Palace Ballet sold for $14, or when i got a first edition (hardcover) of living on luck for $4.
 

Purple Stickpin

Over 5000 posts
Carterofmars said:
Can I ask you what you think of this from the "Collecting Bukowski" web site:
Everything on that website is spot on. An invaluable resource. I would think that most of the regulars here would agree. The bit about value being in between ebay prices and abebook prices makes sense, but in the end, the value is what someone will pay for it. I've bought books well below abebooks prices, and very near abebooks prices.

Of course, I'm a bit of an idiot. Don't judge prices from me. ;)
 

jordan

lothario speedwagon
Over 1000 posts
can a mod consolidate this thread with the other one in the b/s/t forum?
thanks.
 

jordan

lothario speedwagon
Over 1000 posts
no problem at all...
generally, when you're unclear about where to post a thread, just post it wherever and make a note that you weren't sure... the mods will move it if it belongs somewhere else.
 

mjp

Your Host
Moderator
Founding member
Over 5000 posts
i've put a lot of thought into this question (that of how ebay affects determination of a book's market value)...
eBay fluctuates, for sure, but to me, the great thing about eBay - and the information sharing on the internet in general - is that it takes the power to set prices (and that's exactly what they did) away from booksellers.

If a book seller - I don't know, lets call him "Joshua The Enabler" - says Crucifix in a Deathhand is worth $350, but half a dozen copies sell on eBay for $200, then the value is clearly $200. The value Joshua assigns to the book is irrelevant.

But book sellers are very similar to art gallery owners. If I trust the gallery owner, I'll take his or her word for value. Same thing with Joshua. He knows that he can keep his price at $350 and sell Crucifix to a buyer who believes the price is realistic because Joshua set it, and Joshua would never lie to him.

Anyway, here's my handy, iron-clad guide to book values, and this applies to any book of any rarity by any author:

For the buyer, value = much more than you have to spend.
For the seller, value = much less than you hope to get.
 

Carterofmars

Over 100 posts
Bill:

That's it

MJP:

I agree with you about eBay's ability to show realistic prices of collectibles. It truly shows what BUYERS are willing to pay for an item; and that's its true value. Tomorrow, I can put my copy of Second Coming up on eBay for a buy it now of 300.00. But, of course that does not make the book worth 300.00.

Some sellers just throw stuff out there, ridiculously inflated, in hopes of getting a bite. And, I guess they sometimes do, but those prices skew calculations if someone is hoping to find a median value.

I guess maybe the best thing to do is just ignore the inflated listings. BTW the same holds true for any collectible. For instance I've seen prints and posters listed on ebay at what you'd expect to pay in a retail setting. Actually that is a good way to look at it. Items highly inflated could be viewed simply as retail value, not auction value. I think the three values are insurance, retail, then auction with the highest being insurance then next highest retail, and lowest being auction.

joe
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
Over 5000 posts
Some sellers just throw stuff out there, ridiculously inflated, in hopes of getting a bite. And, I guess they sometimes do, but those prices skew calculations if someone is hoping to find a median value.
David Barker once referred to this as "Fishing for Fools". I think that sums it up pretty well.

As far as the value of the Buk second coming, I would say $20, but with ebay you could not get a bite at that or you could get $200. Sometimes strange things happen. I saw a roll of twine go for $46 the other day. I saw a type case (empty) got for $98 (you can buy them all day for about $10, in fact, I have a guy in Camden, NJ who will sell you them for $8 and less if you ask nicely....)

Of course, with the dollar worth so little, maybe $46 for a few yards of white twine is a good deal.

Bill
 

Carterofmars

Over 100 posts
David Barker once referred to this as "Fishing for Fools". I think that sums it up pretty well.

As far as the value of the Buk second coming, I would say $20.
I would agree with that price because that is exactly what I paid for it. incidentally Fogal lists it at 55.00. Have prices for BUK cooled? Or I wonder if it's the present economy?

Interesting little tidbit:
I've read that Art collectors buy sometimes buy art in countries where the money is devalued and then turn and sell in countries with stronger currencies realizing enormous profits at times.
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
Over 5000 posts
I would agree with that price because that is exactly what I paid for it. incidentally Fogel lists it at 55.00. Have prices for BUK cooled? Or I wonder if it's the present economy?
No, some have gone way down and some way up. In this case, as with the issues of Wormwood Review, Fogel made his best attempt, but the values were just wrong. Yes, $55 for this issue of SC would be a tough sell.

Bill
 

mjp

Your Host
Moderator
Founding member
Over 5000 posts
incidentally Fogal lists it at 55.00. Have prices for BUK cooled? Or I wonder if it's the present economy?
The internet made a lot of (all?) printed price guides obsolete. If Fogel, in all his collecting travels, only saw one or two copies of something, he could reasonably assume it was scarce and assign a scarce value to it. But enter the internet where everyone on earth who has a copy shows up to the party, and suddenly, the book isn't so scarce.

There are a few Bukowski-specific examples, Going Modern being one of them. Pre-internet a bookseller could put out his catalog and call that "suppressed" or "rare," and you couldn't really argue with him. He's the expert. Of course now you see them everywhere and we know that none of the 500 copies were intentionally destroyed, and you've seen the value adjust accordingly.
 

Carterofmars

Over 100 posts
Guys,

How would you put a value on Wormwood review 137 in Fine condition using ABEbooks...

Wormwood 137


They range from 7.00 to 50.00. Average for the 4 copies is 30 bucks.

Would you say 30.00 then for a NF or Fine? Or way less like 10-15 bucks, is what I think the value is.

joe
 

hank solo

Just practicin' steps and keepin' outta the fights
Moderator
Founding member
Over 1000 posts
Sometimes strange things happen. I saw a roll of twine go for $46 the other day...

Of course, with the dollar worth so little, maybe $46 for a few yards of white twine is a good deal.
Well, it depends. How long was it?
 

Joseph K

Over 100 posts
I've read that Art collectors buy sometimes buy art in countries where the money is devalued and then turn and sell in countries with stronger currencies realizing enormous profits at times.
This is possible but highly risky. Many countries have import taxes on art or restrictions on import. Also, currency fluctuations make this an uncertain business. It's always better to buy commodities with no import restrictions - unfortunately mostly low-end commodities which are bought in bulk. I can see the appeal of buying a Picasso drawing but less appeal in 700 tonnes of coal. If there was an easy way of making a buck you KNOW governments would find a way of taxing it...
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
Over 5000 posts
Guys,

How would you put a value on Wormwood review 137 in Fine condition using ABEbooks...

Wormwood 137


They range from 7.00 to 50.00. Average for the 4 copies is 30 bucks.

Would you say 30.00 then for a NF or Fine? Or way less like 10-15 bucks, is what I think the value is.

joe
Ebay value is probably $10. Up until a couple years ago you could buy back issues directly from the Malone family for about $7 each. The person that is trying to sell it for $50 is probably Gregor. They will only sell that for $50 once all other copies are bought up and a collector needs it to complete a set.

Still, at $10 or less, I would not let one go.

Bill
 
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