Beatles or Stones (or Kinks? Monkees? Herman's Hermits?) (1 Viewer)

i don't know about groundbreaking but they were hugely influential. i've heard alot of musicians talk about them and ray davies in particular regarding that. oh ya, i like the kinks too;)

rjwink666 said:
Today his actions would be seen as ludicrous PR stunts.
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i think they were back then too...:D
 
rjwink666 said:
Yeah, The Kinks. 'You really got me', one of the most groundbreaking and influential rock songs ever released.


From what I've read, and seen Lennon was a man full of contradictions. I think he jumped on the PEACE bandwagon and whilst his contemporaries were actively activists, he literally didn't even bother to get out of bed. Today his actions would be seen as ludicrous PR stunts.
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"You Really Got Me" is a solid song. I wouldn't consider it at a level with the best. In fact, as far as the Kinks go, I would rather listen to (same era) the Beach Boys. "Help Me Rhonda" and "California Girls" are better pop songs, with the same subject matter: Girls.

As far as Lennon and contradictions, so what? He was human, not a demigod. But you don't make your point; you don't back up that statement.

And, his "bed protest" was ground-breaking at the time; calling attention to something that was important to him. Peace. Dissing that is rather "W" of you.

Lennon was probably a very complex and conflicted man. But so what? I don't buy his music because of him, I buy his music because I like many things about it. And it's a long fucking list. That grows every time I listen.

I'm also amazed at how many people from the UK aren't huge JL fans. Why? Let's take an American band: every single person in the USA loves the Doors, save for one: mjp. ;)

Pax
 
mjp said:
What do you base that on, the Van Halen cover version?

Oh, so they made 'You really got me,' determined it was not serious, then started writing more like Lennon always had been. I get it.

Thanks for clearing that up.

The kinks recorded 25 albums, but I can't name five of their songs (I can only think of two, guess which two?), and I am of generation that devoured rock, pop and top 40 music for decades. The very decades the Kinks were making records. I just don't see the "groundbreaking" or "influence." That isn't an insult to you or family. It's an observation.
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Erm, well at least pretty much every British rock band since. Particulary bands like The Specials, Blur, The Stranglers, Stone Roses, The Smiths, Pulp, Suede, Elvis Costello, The Jam, Ian Dury, The Clash, The Cure, The Coral and every single modern Brit band (yes, a lot of them suck)...basically any band who don't feel they have to sing like Americans.
 
I can only name two or three Kinks songs, now that you mention it. I do know the tune of a few others. I could name more Monkees songs.
 
And, his "bed protest" was ground-breaking at the time; calling attention to something that was important to him. Peace. Dissing that is rather "W" of you.
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I'm not dissing Peace, I'm dissing the stunt. Unlike, I don't know somebody like Bono I don't honestly believe Lennon used his fame to actively make changes and promote worldwide awareness. Hell, wasn't Lennon late to the party anyway with the intense anti-war protests of the nineteen sixties already in full flow, millions of people were already politically aware and politically active. I'm not sure the bed-in benefitted anybody other then Lennon and Ono themselves.

I'm also amazed at how many people from the UK aren't huge JL fans. Why?
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He's a marmite man like Morrissey, you either love him or hate him. I really don't think its possible to be ambivalent about John Lennon.
 
Okay I learned something new today: the Kinks were banned from performing in the US in the late 60's. So obviously they were never properly exposed over there when they were really at their peak creatively.

But I'm guessing that we aren't changing anyone's opinion here.
 
homeless mind said:
And, his "bed protest" was ground-breaking at the time; calling attention to something that was important to him. Peace. Dissing that is rather "W" of you.
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What is it usually called when you talk about how passionate you are about something and then doing nothing about it? I don't think "ground-breaking" is the term...
 
I would think that a musician who has the ears of millions of people and produces songs that promote peace, love and power to the people has not "done nothing" about it. His message reached many, many people. If they choose to listen to it, follow it, ignore it, mock it, or do the opposite, which of these choices can be attributed to John Lennon?

Out of curiosity, what requirements do you put upon a person who espouses an ethic? At what point have they "done something about it?"
 
Unfortunately, someone kills that person. To acquire fame, infamy.

RIP, JL, my brother in spirit.

For real tears flowing from my eyes right now...that I can't hold back:

GIVE PEACE A CHANCE.

Damn. Damn. Damn.
 
HiddenFormula said:
Erm, well at least pretty much every British rock band since. Particulary bands like The Specials, Blur, The Stranglers, Stone Roses, The Smiths, Pulp, Suede, Elvis Costello, The Jam, Ian Dury, The Clash, The Cure, The Coral and every single modern Brit band (yes, a lot of them suck)...basically any band who don't feel they have to sing like Americans.
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Not sure why the bands you listed "particularly" owe homage to the Kinks for not singing in American accents. Is your claim that the Kinks were the first British performers not to sing with American accents? I think that may be easily proven wrong. If I cared. And even if it was true, it's useless ground to break.

We could debate who influenced President Eisenhower to be the first American President not to speak with an "upper crust" British accent. That's an interesting topic too. In Whocaresville.

Or why that kid in Green Day continues to sing in a phony British accent, long after his chance at ever really joining the Clash has vanished.

Most of the bands in your list emulated American musicians anyway, whether they sang in American accents or not. The Specials? What the fuck, man? For the fifteen minutes they were relevant they were imitating 15 year old Jamaican music. I thought we were talking about rock bands.

All this talk about the Kinks makes me thirsty. It doesn't make me remember any more of their songs, but I'm sure thirsty.

You know, yesterday I wore one black shoe and one blue shoe to work, and no one noticed. Or if they did notice, they didn't say anything.

There, that story was more interesting than the entire career (and discussion) of the Kinks.

But I do love chatting about popular music with you all. It's invigorating. And it's made even more enjoyable by the fact that I don't care, and I'm always right anyway. So yeah, it's pretty fun for me. I don't know why you guys like it though.
 
mjp said:
Not sure why the bands you listed "particularly" owe homage to the Kinks for not singing in American accents. Is your claim that the Kinks were the first British performers not to sing with American accents? I think that may be easily proven wrong. If I cared. And even if it was true, it's useless ground to break.
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Nah, I don't mind really. I just couldn't suffer in silence when one of my favourite bands get such abuse...it's a knee jerk reaction;) The accent part is just a minor statement. I meant to also say that a major attraction for me, and a lot of Kinks fans is how they sung about issues and subject matters that were very orientated to British life, and those themes that are still relevant which is why so many bands in Britian in particular count them as a major influence.

You'll probably turn this post against me, cos' you clearly aren't the biggest Kinks fans out there! but hey that's the great thing about personal opinions. You can always get some amusment out winding up their fanboys. Haha!
 
Yes, Badfinger...my favorite wannabe. Pet Hamm was a very able writer/musician. And the whole band played Gibson SG's most of the time (looks so cool on stage).
It was them , not Toni Iommi, who made me get one of those guitars (but I simply look cool in my attic).
 
HiddenFormula said:
I meant to also say that a major attraction for me, and a lot of Kinks fans is how they sung about issues and subject matters that were very orientated to British life, and those themes that are still relevant which is why so many bands in Britian in particular count them as a major influence.
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Well, if they did that, good on 'em, as you kids (or the Australians) say. But - you'd be disappointed if there wasn't a "but," wouldn't you? - the tide was already turning toward that kind of relevant-to-real-life writing at that time. The folk singers started that when they burned down Tin Pan Alley.
 
Gerard K H Love said:
Well, you have to admit, back in those olden days more bands imitated the Beatles than the Stones.
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I just meant because I like them by the way. I know it was pure manufatured pop but it was well done at the same time. They did some really catchy tunes. I wouldn't say they were a great band or anything but they were a laugh. I also have fond memories of their TV show which always seemed to be getting repeated on summer holiday mornings when I was a kid. It would probably be awful if you were to watch it now mind.
 
Beatles, Stones, Monkees and Kinks
All the things these fine peoples thinks
The more we go the more this stinks
Beatles ,Stones Monkees and Kinks
Let's all just go and have us some drinks

I know I'm being an asshole, please don't kill me.
 
I love how Mickey Dolenz has realized that he was not in a real band and that he was an actor playing someone on tv. You have to appreciate a member of a soulless copy of a band who realizes that he was a soulless copy of a band. At least he is now grounded in reality.

I wonder how long it will take for Naked Brothers/Jonas Brothers to realize this.

Also, did David Cassidy ever figure this out?

Bill
 
Dolenz does come off well in the article; grounded.

The only Brothers I know are Allman.
Ok, maybe Jake & Elwood, too. ;)

And come on, David Cassidy? He just got on the wrong bus...he could have turned into an hellacious merry prankster.

Pax
 
I also like the Monkees.

Like, you know. Whatever.
 
Mongo like candy...

mongo.gif


Ever notice how Davy Jones of the Monkees sung and spoke with an English accent - yes, that's right - he was under the influence of Ray Davies :rolleyes:
 
Or maybe it was Peter Noone of Herman's Hermits. "I'm 'enry the 8th I am!"

Or George Formby, "When I'm Washing Windows".

(Picked up one of those older TV tie-in books featuring the Monkees in the story line: Who's Got the Button? Oooooh, is that a drug reference? Seem to remember the same line in the movie adaptation of the book/diary Go Ask Alice.)
 
I heard a story about Peter Noone. On his first trip to the US, he was paged at the airport. Only he didn't notice the first few times, as the page went:

"Paging Mr No One. Paging Mr. No One. Mr. Peter No One please..."

BTW - George Formby was singing ""
 
I suggest anyone (MJP) not convinced about the Kinks influence & importance read the wikipedia blurb on them. I know some folks don't trust them but I've found them pretty legit on music matters.

And believe me I hardly consider myself a Kinks fan. Have never seen them live nor would I want too. Had maybe two albums by them, like them casually.

But as far as sixties rock bands, I put them right below Beatles, Stones etc. Much more than the Doors who I love.

With newer English bands it's more than obvious and I still hear new American bands name dropping them.
 
I won't read it because I don't give a damn about wikipedia. And if there is a subject on which it is even more inaccurate than it usually is, it's music.
 
When I think of the Kinks, I think Waterloo Sunset, Sunny Afternoon, and Celluloid Heroes. Three very solid songs that rank right up there in the R&R pantheon. But if You Really Got Me or Lola come on the radio, I can't snap it off quickly enough.
 
Purple Stickpin said:
I would think that a musician who has the ears of millions of people and produces songs that promote peace, love and power to the people has not "done nothing" about it. His message reached many, many people. If they choose to listen to it, follow it, ignore it, mock it, or do the opposite, which of these choices can be attributed to John Lennon?

Out of curiosity, what requirements do you put upon a person who espouses an ethic? At what point have they "done something about it?"
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To be perfectly honest, I don't give a shit about Lennon in particular. I've never bought or downloaded anything he made apart from the Beatles and I certainly never went and bought a book or read any news pieces about him.

As such, I don't think he's fraudulent in general, as rjwink666 apparently does, but singling out that protest as being particularly ground-breaking or effective is a bit odd to me (regardless of whatever else he does).
 
I am not of the opinion that Lennon's protest phase was either ground-breaking or effective. What was ground-breaking and effective were his compositional style and musical attitude (in my opinion, of course).
 
Ninjerk said:
To be perfectly honest, I don't give a shit about Lennon in particular. I've never bought or downloaded anything he made apart from the Beatles and I certainly never went and bought a book or read any news pieces about him.
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That's obvious.

And, having never bought a book or read any news piece about him, I assume you must be quite knowledgeable. But maybe that's just me.

Ninjerk said:
As such, I don't think he's fraudulent in general, as rjwink666 apparently does, but singling out that protest as being particularly ground-breaking or effective is a bit odd to me (regardless of whatever else he does).
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You are allowed to think he is fraudulent (IMO: dumb-as-a-brick thinking); as we are all allowed opinions.

As far as the "bed-in" being groundbreaking, it was. And it drew attention to an important issue: Peace.

TV and other press from around the world covered it. It was international news.

Maybe reading about it will help you understand. Google it. There are just a few mentions of this "unimportant" event.

But I guess when we read about rap stars smacking around girlfriends (the latest news du jour), and that's the big news, we fall into the cracks of stupidity. And accept that pop/rock/rap/country (whatever) stars make news for the wrong reasons.

Here was somebody focused on peace.

He must have been crazy.

And that we're still talking about the "bed-in" today, what, some 40 years later, means that it had just a little impact...get it?

(You might find this interesting, too: In December 1969, John and Yoko spread their messages of peace with billboards reading "WAR IS OVER! If You Want It - Happy Christmas From John and Yoko". These Billboards went up in eleven major world cities.)
 
Anyone who believes that Lennon was insincere should look for the documentary, John and Yoko's Year of Peace. It's quite interesting whether you are a "fan" of Lennon or not.

Protest in general is rarely very effective. It didn't stop the Vietnam war (the increasingly violent internal revolt of the ground troops - like fragging (murdering) commanding officers they considered to be dangerous - is what ended the war), and I don't think the youth of a country could have protested anything more than they did that war.

The above documentary is interesting in part because it shows that Lennon was indeed very sincere about his peace efforts, but became disillusioned (for good reason) and eventually gave them up. He was a realist above all else.
 
Its very easy to become disgusted with the goings-on of culture and civilization. An elevated consciousness will not have patience...and will soon move on to more important things quite readily.
 
mjp said:
The kinks recorded 25 albums, but I can't name five of their songs (I can only think of two, guess which two?), and I am of generation that devoured rock, pop and top 40 music for decades.
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Okay, I tried to play last night. Got about 24 Kinks songs down on a list while at work last night. Excluding the two big ones (You Really Got Me and Lola) the other 22 were: All Day and All of the Night, Till The End of the Day, See My Friends, Set Me Free, Tired of Waiting, Stop Your Sobbing (the Pretenders cover), I'm Not Like Everybody Else, Dedicated Follower of Fashion, Sunny Afternoon, David Watts, Death of a Clown (Dave Davies), Waterloo Sunset, Victoria, Days, Mirror of Love, Autumn Almanac, Celluloid Heroes, Father Xmas, Milkcow Boogie Blues (Chocolate Watchband cover version), Muswell Hillbillies, Holiday in Wakiki, Village Green Preservation Society.

MH and VGPS might only be album titles. 25 years ago I made a cassette of some of those songs. They stuck. Now I can look to see how many I got wrong and play all of them.

The Move is next. (Do Ya, Blackberry Way, Curly, California Man, Brontosaurus....:p)

mjp said:
Well, if they did that, good on 'em, as you kids (or the Australians) say. But - you'd be disappointed if there wasn't a "but," wouldn't you? - the tide was already turning toward that kind of relevant-to-real-life writing at that time. The folk singers started that when they burned down Tin Pan Alley.
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Pete Seeger a pyromaniac? Hopefully he and the other Weavers paid Leadbelly for "Goodnight Irene".

I can see Dylan lighting a cigarette but not much else. Bet he thanks artists like Peter, Paul and Mary, The Byrds, The Turtles and even Cher for early covers of his stuff. Money in the bank.

The song writing factories might have died out in New York City but the publishing rights didn't. And getting other people to cover your tunes was still a big item in the 1960s. No doubt it still is. So it helped if you could write a song (melody and words) worth covering. McCartney sure did.
 

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