Beatles or Stones (or Kinks? Monkees? Herman's Hermits?) (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Billville
- Start date
The Beatles had several turning points. Listen to the lack of Ringo on Rubber Soul; I mean, he's there, but that Ticket to Ride drumming sound is almost completely absent. Then, in April '66, when the Revolver sessions started, Rain came out and boasts some of his best drumming, which was always snare-heavy, but never moreso than on this great cut.
The androgeny of tonal center in both Rain and Paperback Writer really brought the innovation of their earlier works to fruition. Revolver brought this further to the fore with the flat 7 all over the flippin' place. It sounds familiar now because the Beatles made it like that.
Pepper may have been the fire-glo masterpiece, but the foundation was laid firmly in spring-summer '66 with the total departure from standard R&R form and substance.
Elvis is an Elvis impersonator impersonator (hiding from the spotlight)
Actually I think 'See My Friends' written by Ray Davies in 1964 pre-dates 'Rain' & 'Paper Back Writer' in incorperating the droning, indian influenced music with the r n b sound that lead to psychedelia.
I'm pretty much a purist, so I was a bit surprised at how much I liked Love upon first hearing. But I shouldn't have been. Martin was a huge reason for their success, and he indeed did a masterful job on Love along with his son.
Oh, and I'll give HiddenFormula's link a listen tonight at home...
Oh, and I'll give HiddenFormula's link a listen tonight at home...
"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together" - JL
Purist, too. Let's not forget the JL influence. Which, I know, you haven't. But without the writing, Mr.M would have never had the same colors to paint with. And no, not with the Stones, as other(s) have opined. As they weren't in the same mental playground as JL. Monkeybars included.
I am the Walrus.
Pax
Good tune. Certainly it does predate the Beatles' songs I mentioned, but I guess my point was that the Beatles altered their entire sound (or should I say that it evolved) so that their overall direction was toward the Revolver and then Pepper sound.
But, I'd be crazy to insist that the Beatles alone had a hand in all this. I mean the Byrds beat then to the psychedelic punch with Eight Miles High, which was originally recorded in December '65.
Love, Love, Love...
Love is all you need...
Pax,
homeless mind
For those starved to read JL's truth:
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you
in time - It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
All you need is love (all together now)
All you need is love (everybody)
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaahha.
that's why you da man.
and i really am laughing that hard.
hahahahhahahahahhahahahhahaha.
Cheers to your Kaleidoscope eyes....
that's why you da man.
and i really am laughing that hard.
hahahahhahahahahhahahahhahaha.
Cheers to your Kaleidoscope eyes....
Oh dear. Seriously; lyrics are not poetry. I had this argument with my wife on Saturday night, and she still doesn't accept it.
But it's true. It doesn't mean that they are any less viable as thoughts or any less valuble. It's just that you can't read song lyrics and expect them to be a poem. And you can't sing a poem and expect a good song.
An obvious counter argument would be Morrison or Dylan. But try it:
Morrison wrote poetry, and he wrote lyrics. But ne'er the twain shall meet. Not to say that he didn't recite poetry over music "as lyrics." But that doesn't count; we're talking true sung lyrics vs. poetry.
Dylan writes mainly lyrics, and while they come close, they fall flat as poetry. Try it with Desolation Row, Visions of Johanna, It's Alright Ma or A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall. Great words. Horrible poems.
But it's true. It doesn't mean that they are any less viable as thoughts or any less valuble. It's just that you can't read song lyrics and expect them to be a poem. And you can't sing a poem and expect a good song.
An obvious counter argument would be Morrison or Dylan. But try it:
Morrison wrote poetry, and he wrote lyrics. But ne'er the twain shall meet. Not to say that he didn't recite poetry over music "as lyrics." But that doesn't count; we're talking true sung lyrics vs. poetry.
Dylan writes mainly lyrics, and while they come close, they fall flat as poetry. Try it with Desolation Row, Visions of Johanna, It's Alright Ma or A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall. Great words. Horrible poems.
I've been educated by the brittle female organ already.
And I'm sometwat, I mean, somewhat in agreement.
Almost totally.
Mojo's poetry is lacking for me "” it just doesn't work (his poetry), compared to the greats.
But Dylan is where the lines still get blurred.
Dad gum, Mr Tambourine Man, while I can't read it without hearing it (as per The Bruce Springsteen of BUKnet's suggestion); it still befuddles me.
Methinks it's poetry.
But again, I can't read it without hearing it in my head.
So I am a victim of sound.
Sonorous curse, if I may.
Damn you, O brittle one...
And I'm sometwat, I mean, somewhat in agreement.
Almost totally.
Mojo's poetry is lacking for me "” it just doesn't work (his poetry), compared to the greats.
But Dylan is where the lines still get blurred.
Dad gum, Mr Tambourine Man, while I can't read it without hearing it (as per The Bruce Springsteen of BUKnet's suggestion); it still befuddles me.
Methinks it's poetry.
But again, I can't read it without hearing it in my head.
So I am a victim of sound.
Sonorous curse, if I may.
Damn you, O brittle one...
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Sorry; I edited my post whilst you were quoting. Dylan is indeed close. As close as a red pubic hair. But not there.
But not to worry; Dylan's lyrics are better than a great deal of poetry.
But not to worry; Dylan's lyrics are better than a great deal of poetry.
The way I see Bob is that he isn't a rock star. He is merely a great writer who happens to get his message out through song. So music is his curse, his means to an end. His way to convey his message...music is just a sidebar.
I'm going to duck now. Gimme shelter...
I'm going to duck now. Gimme shelter...
I see no flaw in that position at all. If you've read Dylan's liner notes to Another Side..., Bringing it... or Highway 61... you'll know that he can also write engaging prose. Albeit, somewhat random, stream-of-conciousness prose (a la Kerouac; from whom that probably emerged).
I really like those notes; zits and all. They are, as Dylan later expressed (was it from Ionescu?), all about "I is another." Dylan is a lie (and I don't mean that disparagingly, but as someone who has almost all of his records, boots included, and puts him right up there with Aristotle and Woody Allen), but the words are genuine nonetheless.
I really like those notes; zits and all. They are, as Dylan later expressed (was it from Ionescu?), all about "I is another." Dylan is a lie (and I don't mean that disparagingly, but as someone who has almost all of his records, boots included, and puts him right up there with Aristotle and Woody Allen), but the words are genuine nonetheless.
mjp
Founding member
Bob Dylan wanted, very badly, to be a star. Whatever rejection of "stardom" he did after the fact doesn't change that.
And when he left Hibbing, he had no message. His only message was, "look at me."
I love Bob Dylan and his crazy ideas and crazy music. But he is who he is.
Most people who became famous for their art just wanted someone to look at them. Validate them. Or to prove to their fathers that they were worthy of their love. That is a very common theme among successful people in all walks of life, not just entertainment.
I agree....lyrics are always to a degree restrained by the music. With poetry I guess you have total freedom to express yourself purely through words regardless of form, rhyme or whatever. Lyrics rely on the music to enhance the emotion, and in turn the passion of the music is enhanced by the lyrical subject & style. Of course some lyrics verge on poetry when you read them alone, but most times you can tell that they have been written with the music in mind.
In music the melody & song will always be the most accesible part. Although lyrics are important, the music is what grabs you first and sucks you in....then after you loose yourself in the sounds & textures of the song you start to listen to the words, and it's like the music carries the words along in your mind, but with poetry it's less passive and requires more effort and imagination.
I think its okay to care which words accompany your music...I also think its okay NOT to care. Any ol words will do, and rhyming even helps. Because in music its not the story that counts...and if it is, then its likely either bad music or bad story.
If you got a tale to tell...write that fucker down, no chords, beats, melody should be allowed to try to sap it.
Protest songs?...hah, they were all just songs in the end, not protests.
You wanna be Che Guevara, you better get a better weapon than an acoustic guitar.
If you got a tale to tell...write that fucker down, no chords, beats, melody should be allowed to try to sap it.
Protest songs?...hah, they were all just songs in the end, not protests.
You wanna be Che Guevara, you better get a better weapon than an acoustic guitar.
can we get the kinks off the title of this thread yet? it's just not that shallow...
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
Just be glad the Monkees didn't make it to the title as well.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
... or Herman's Hermits....
LMAO
Well, with the Beatles, Stones, Herman's Hermits, at least we have some solid representation of a fine homegrown USA band:
The Monkees.
Any band that had Jimi Hendrix open for them is AOK in my book.
:eek:
Mr. S:
So, you're saying "Stairway To Heaven" would be just as good without the lyrics? And/or any lyrics would have worked? The story doesn't matter?
Hmmm.
:confused:
Pax
mjp
Founding member
The lyrics to Stairway to Heaven? Please. They are random crap at best. Not to mention impenetrable in spots to most of the American kids who made them millionaires (a bustle in your hedgerow? Fuck you!).
It's funny, I was thinking just this morning about how I used to play the intro to Stairway during any particularly long lull between songs at punk gigs, just to see the violent reaction. It never failed to spark some sort of response. Never positive, naturally. We used to threaten unresponsive audiences with the song. "If you fuckers don't show some signs of life we're going to play Stairway to Heaven!" Ha ha.
It's funny, I was thinking just this morning about how I used to play the intro to Stairway during any particularly long lull between songs at punk gigs, just to see the violent reaction. It never failed to spark some sort of response. Never positive, naturally. We used to threaten unresponsive audiences with the song. "If you fuckers don't show some signs of life we're going to play Stairway to Heaven!" Ha ha.
Gerard K H Love
Appreciate your friends
I love it when you fantasize out CRB, it shows us how kinky you are.;)
This should be my new signature:
(a bustle in your hedgerow? Fuck you!).
This should be my new signature:
(a bustle in your hedgerow? Fuck you!).
Come on, cut me some slack here...
Hey, I'm not saying the song is great (not my point). For the record, I dig, and I'm a huge Plant & Page fan. But they have much better, less commercial songs. Some songs on Zep II and/or Physical Graffiti rock the house.
And Dazed & Confused, well, 'nuf said. One more thought here: if rock n roll ever fornicated with the blues, this is a good porn version...And Plant has fucking pipes, man. Sick pipes.
Back on topic: my pencil point was merely this:
The lyrics to a song matter. It was an example. Without those lyrics, it is not as powerful as with them. Again, you don't have to like the song. I'm just illustrating a point. With mental crayons. That's all.
As for Zep, rumor has it they can still fill a stadium or two. And Bonzo was the best drummer ever to pick up a drum stick "” rock n roll, not jazz.
Pax
Do your lips have cellophane attached? Let's hope so.
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together...
;)
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Digney in Burnaby
donkeys live a long time
Here's the original by Jake Holmes.
Digney in Burnaby
donkeys live a long time
I think he eventually got acknowledged. Link here on Jake Holmes. And a further link about Page which isn't very flattering.
chronic
old and in the way
Thanks for that. I heard long ago abut this version but never heard it until now.
Someone should issue a CD of the original versions of all of the songs that Led Zeppelin stole (it would have to be a 2 or 3 disc set). I always wondered how they managed to avoid being sued out of existence by the people they stole from. I know that Willie Dixon sued them for a song or two but never heard about any other lawsuits against them for plagiarism.
I have a CD- 'Pickin' On Zeppelin'-which I love. All blue-grass renditions of Zep songs. Tried to link it once to the, 'What Are You Listening To Now' thread. I had no luck finding it. Iam/was a big
Zppelin fan. It is so much a part of my youth that it's hard to let it go, or even talk serious shit. I saw Page live in 88', on his own, and I loved the show. I would not pay to go see a Zep. reunion show. And I hope they hold out and that they DON'T do it. One of the things that always sat sour with me about The Stones was that they never could seem to just give it a rest. I mean, does anyone remember the Jagger/Bowie fiasco of the 80's? I can't even remember the name of that song-I think I've effectivly blocked it out. It was horrible-just like the majority of 80's music.CRB:)
Zppelin fan. It is so much a part of my youth that it's hard to let it go, or even talk serious shit. I saw Page live in 88', on his own, and I loved the show. I would not pay to go see a Zep. reunion show. And I hope they hold out and that they DON'T do it. One of the things that always sat sour with me about The Stones was that they never could seem to just give it a rest. I mean, does anyone remember the Jagger/Bowie fiasco of the 80's? I can't even remember the name of that song-I think I've effectivly blocked it out. It was horrible-just like the majority of 80's music.CRB:)
Lolita Twist
Rose-hustler
Hmm... disagree a bit about the Dylan thing. (I know, Dylan becomes a social issue in intellectual discussion, untouchable, somewhat like AIDS, or going up to a guy in a wheelchair and dancing). I agree that songs with repetitive chorus' make horrible poems (never like repetition in poems...). Though I disagree about It's Alright, Ma...
"http://www.bobdylan.com/#/songs/its-alright-ma-im-only-bleeding" said:
It's could arguably be a very long poem, but what's wrong with that? (Remember Howl?). But other than that, it doesn't have a repetitive chorus. It just rhymes, but in my opinion it's not an annoying rhyme. The rhyme comes flowingly, intelligently. Arguably, this is a poem set to music. The music to this piece is not elaborate, the lyrics are more in the spotlight. Essentially, I am listening to this now, the music is 3 or 4 chords repeated over and over as Dylan speaks, he's not singing. To me it's equivalent to someone doing a spoken word while someone's banging a drum in the background. Same argument could be made with most of the songs on Bringing It All Back Home if you ask me. (Those are the songs I'm most familiar with... so I shall speak no further on his other material, as I have bits and pieces from each album, but few in entirity).
