How common is it to find a copy of "Crucifix" with the orange cover wrap in tact? (1 Viewer)

LickTheStar

Sad Flower in the Sand
Just curious as I'm looking into buying a copy (as I can't afford a copy of It Catches at this time). I'm going between a few different copies on Abe and some of 'em have the orange wrap, some don't... Some don't specify. So I'm trying to see if I can afford one with it, or not.

I'd assume it is fairly uncommon as the book is 40 some years old... Any ballpark statistics on this? Thanks folks!
 

ROC

It is what it is
Very common.
No stats though.
You can still find a mint condition Crucifix with a 'belly band' for hundreds of dollars.
Any one on ABE not specifically mentioning the band will let you know if you email them.

Let us know how you get on.
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
Loujon did the wrap around bands in orange and a creme color. As with almost all LouJon books, there are slight variations. Maybe they ran out of the orange stock? Most bands that I have seen are orange. With the handmade nature of these books and the time it took, I can imagine that they ran out of paper, especially for the flyleaves and replaced it with a different color.

Speaking of variations and LouJon. Has anyone here mentioned the Kerouac variations? I know that it was mentioned in the amazing book by Weddle, but there is also an article here:

http://www.emptymirrorbooks.com/features/jack-kerouac-outsider.html

Part of me thinks that they were trying to create a rarity issue and part of me thinks that there were other reasons. Still, it is very, very odd for a publisher to change the words of a writer and to change it so many different times. It was only luck that Kerouac even found out about it, as it seems that they sent him his copies with the word as he wrote it....

Bill
 
my copy has the non-orange band with a very small tear on the corner. i had to finally store it separately because taking it on and off all the time didn't seem good for it. i acquired my copy very affordably on ebay years ago, and i think if you have patience you still can...

re: the kerouace variations, my copy has "drawing room poetry" in it. thanks for the link, bill. very interesting...
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
There may be other varieties that the author of the article did not see. He only saw 20 of the 3000 copies. It would be cool to find others.

Bill
 

chronic

old and in the way
Speaking of variations and LouJon. Has anyone here mentioned the Kerouac variations? I know that it was mentioned in the amazing book by Weddle, but there is also an article here:

http://www.emptymirrorbooks.com/features/jack-kerouac-outsider.html

Part of me thinks that they were trying to create a rarity issue and part of me thinks that there were other reasons.

Thanks for the link Bill. Fascinating little mystery there. I'm guessing that changing the words was a little jab at Kerouac for his note about keeping it exactly as written. As an editor, Webb may not have taken too kindly to being told how to do his job. He probably thought that no one would ever notice.
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
Maybe, but.... He is also rumored to have changed Burroughs story dramatically, and may have made variations of that change as well. Could it be a dislike for the beats, in general? I'm have not heard of him changing other poems like this?

Jeff Weddle where are you? We need help on this. Lou would know, but I don't want to bother her with a letter about this. Maybe Ed Blair would know...

It is fascinating...

Bill
 

LickTheStar

Sad Flower in the Sand
Thanks for the info. I'm eyeballing a couple more expensive ones now, in the hopes that I'll be getting that $600 refund sometime soon. I suppose there's always that interest free credit card too... Good thing I just got a raise!

And interesting link Bill. I know Kerouac was especially fond of changing just a few words around in his poems (a couple of the books I have show it anyway...), but from the article, it seems like editorial decision. Very interesting.
 

Rekrab

Usually wrong.
Bill: a fascinating article; thanks for the link. Those changes feel like Webb jerking Kerouac around. It's got "passive aggressive" written all over it. I'm not surprised Jack never noticed. I don't know about other writers, but I seldom reread anything of mine when I get a contributor's copy. I usually just file it away. It would be easy to miss typos or changes in a printed work. And now that I think about it, I recently discovered that an article I wrote on Bukowski was heavily cut by the magazine's editor and only about 1/3 of what I wrote was used. The editor had mentioned that he might have to trim it for space, but I never noticed how much trimming he did. I won't name the editor because he's a good guy and I don't want this construed as criticism; he told me up front he would do it, but I didn't pay attention to what he actually did until looked it over recently. I'll eventually republish the whole piece, uncut.
 

mjp

Founding member
Maybe, but.... He is also rumored to have changed Burroughs story dramatically, and may have made variations of that change as well. Could it be a dislike for the beats, in general? I'm have not heard of him changing other poems like this?
I've seen some Webb-edited Bukowski manuscripts from the 60's and he was not shy about changing things. Usually just rearranging lines and a word here or there though. Not quite as...intrusive...as Martin's changes to Women.
 

LickTheStar

Sad Flower in the Sand
Just dropped $550 on one of those copies of Crucifix with the orange band. Can't wait til this baby shows up! My first big Buk purchase... And probably my last for awhile. But very exciting.

Also... What's with editors editing Buk's stuff? Is this a common thing in the editing world? I understanding cutting stuff for space, but to out and out CHANGE the text... Seems... odd.
 

ROC

It is what it is
Congrats on the purchase.
It is a beautiful book.
Will it so beautiful that you dare not fold it fully open, creasing and 'breaking' the spine?

hehehe :)
 
... Is this a common thing in the editing world?

it is.
in the journalist/press-world you find it every day and it's done without even telling or asking you/the author.
in the literary world you have a lectorate/editorial office. these usually do not change without talking to the author about it first. but you never know.
 

bospress.net

www.bospress.net
I would never change a word, without asking the author first. If it is an obvious error, then that is one thing, but to replace a word without the approval of the author is something that I would not do.

Of course, there are some people are more "editors" and are damn good at it. In this case, it would be different, I suppose..

Bill
 

LickTheStar

Sad Flower in the Sand
Just got the book today. In addition to being bigger than I thought... its also beautiful. What a wonderful book. I'll try to post some scans as its in great condition. Plus a great sig and everything else. And belly band completely in tact too. Love it, love it. My first collectable Buk!
 
congrats!!! i remember getting mine in the mail, and yes, it is beautiful. the thing is, now you're hooked! or, i was at least. "it catches" is my favorite of all my collection. it's a bit smaller than "crucifix" but equally beautiful....
 
Just got the book today. In addition to being bigger than I thought... its also beautiful. What a wonderful book. I'll try to post some scans as its in great condition. Plus a great sig and everything else. And belly band completely in tact too. Love it, love it. My first collectable Buk!

yes, it's a beautiful book.
the multi-colored pages with that rip-look on the edge, the binding, the wraparound-cover, the weight of it...
congrats on that one!
be careful with the bellyband, especially when drunk.
and don't have your bookshelfes in the sun.
 

LickTheStar

Sad Flower in the Sand
Good advice! Though I don't drink so I think I'll be ok. I'm probably gonna have to put the belly band within the book though otherwise I probably WILL destroy it.

I've noticed a couple minor issues that make it NEAR fine, not fine as described, but... I paid a NEAR fine price for it anyhow, so... I'm good. Everything within is in beautiful condition, just some minor cover issues.
 

mjp

Founding member
There are minor cover issues with all of those. There were probably minor cover issues before it left the Webbs.

I've said it before, so I promise this is the last time I'll say it, but I hate the Webb books.

It would have been fine to issue some in the formats they used, but they should have also produced an edition in a normal, readable format. Those aren't books, they're book art. And book art is typically something you look at once or twice, then only take out to show off to people.

I think it was a ridiculously lavish and inappropriate way to publish poetry period, let alone the poetry of Bukowski. Those books are unreadable even now unless you buy a trashed copy that you don't mind actually opening.

Congrats on the buy, LickTheStar, but if you ever sit down and read that book I would be very surprised. You'll probably carefully page through it, admire the art of the book itself, and then put it on the shelf (another pain in the ass, due to its irregular size). When you want to read one of the poems in the book you'll pull out the Black Sparrow version.

That's not a knock against you or anyone who buys the book now - I have a copy too - but now it's a historical document. I'm talking about at the time they were published. Once Martin collected most of the poems in them, it became a moot point, the work was then available to the average person to read without putting on a pair of cotton gloves and a HAZMAT suit.

I know everyone loves the Webbs, but I think they probably did more for Bukowski with the Outsider than with those books. And I think his early chapbook publishers did more for him than the Webbs. The Bukowski Sampler, which we've recently talked about, got his work of the period into more hands than the Webb books.

I think with Terror Street Martin was trying to emulate the Webb books, albeit on a smaller scale, and I'm glad that after that he came to his senses and settled on a normal format. Though I love Terror Street because it's so different from every other BSP book. ;)

Okay, like I said, I'll not rag on the Webb books again. I know everyone loves them. But to me they will always be square peg, round hole.
 

LickTheStar

Sad Flower in the Sand
I actually somewhat agree with you. I don't think I would have felt quite so comfortable shelling out the cash for the book if it hadn't been so lavish. The design is only secondary to the poetry by a little bit (and the signature doesn't hurt either!).

But you're right. I'll probably page through it once, read the poems, and then keep it safe on my shelf because of how pretty it is.

Funny story... I almost went with At Terror Street... but because Crucifix was only a couple hundred more with the signature... I went with it instead. Plus the design is something I really like.
 

Black Swan

Abord the Yorikke!
Congrats Lick the Star on your acquisition.

but if you ever sit down and read that book I would be very surprised. You'll probably carefully page through it, admire the art of the book itself, and then put it on the shelf (another pain in the ass, due to its irregular size). When you want to read one of the poems in the book you'll pull out the Black Sparrow version.
These are good points mjp. Now I can relax and stop drooling over these fabulous books. Your post will help me to wait a little longer. I do not have anything signed yet . . .
 

ROC

It is what it is
The problem with waiting is that they just get that much more unaffordable.
When I started collecting I could have bought any of the early BSP books with art for 1500 to 2500 grand. The same books are selling for 5500+ now.

sigh
 

mjp

Founding member
When I started collecting I could have bought any of the early BSP books with art for 1500 to 2500 grand. The same books are selling for 5500+ now.
Well, that's a good point. But these things fluctuate along with everything else. Problem is, when times get tough people tend to sell, but then those times may be tough for a lot of us, so buying is kind of out of the question. I doubt the market will ever be flooded with books with paintings, the way it was flooded with manuscripts in 2000-2002, so the price of those will likely always be high.

Of course, getting your hands on $1200 to buy a book with a painting 10 years ago was probably just as hard as getting your hands on 4 or 5 grand now. Depends on how old you are, where you live and what you do for a living I guess. ;)

What's the latest on a copy of Terror Street or Post Office with a good painting? Probably closer to ten grand.

Well, I have to get back out to the garage to work on my replacement for fossil fuels. The way I figure it, if I can get it to market by the time I'm 60, I can buy up all those books I want. Then when all my bookshelves are full I'll die and I won't care anymore. That's my plan.
 

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