Translations in to Portuguese language (2 Viewers)

[Bukfan]

Roni said:

right now I'm reading 'Hollywood' for the first time in English. A lot of things turn out to be better of course, but some really worked better for me in German. (yes, I said 'better')

And in case anybody of you has ever wondered how sudden this book starts ("A couple of days later ...") - the German translation, as always, follows the original manuscript: and this one has a whole page before that start, telling about Pinchot calling him and asking to write a screenplay. I don't know why this was left out in the English version.

So there's a whole page missing in the English version? (The Danish translation also starts with, "A couple of days later...". ) But maybe it's wrong to say it's missing. It was probably an editorial decision, but somehow Weissner had access to the original manuscript and decided to include that page in his translation. Just my two cents...

 

[roni]

... It was probably an editorial decision, but somehow Weissner had access to the original manuscript ...

sure it was an editorial decission. But a bad one, I think. The way it starts in the English version is pointless - the missing of the beginning is so obvious.

Besides, it's a funny start, when Pinchot calls him, asking for a screenplay and he answers something like "Fuck you." and puts down the phone, Pinchot calls again, asking for a screenplay, he answers "I hate screenplays, I hate Hollywood, I hate actors and I hate movies...", then Pinchot offers an advance-payment and he immediately says: "Where are you now? Can you come by?"

--> for all those around who know German a little better than Portugese: HERE is this beginning.
(Attached a text copy produced by running roni's gif through the OCR)


Yes, Weissner was translating from what is considered to be the 'original script'. In this case it shows especially in chapters 1 and 7.

Another book where you see this very clear is his translation of 'Women'. He even used the original project-title 'Love Tale of the Hyenna' ('Das Liebesleben der Hyäne').

 

[Bukfan]

You're right, Roni, the missing part should've been left in! It's very funny and it makes perfect sense, (my German is so much better than my Portuguese) so I don't understand why it was left out. Another questionable decision by Martin, I guess.
So, after the phone calls, Buk drives to Marina Del Rey to meet Pinchot and then follows the "normal" beginning we all know, right?
Thanks a lot, for showing us the missing part, Roni!

 

[JTParreira]

Poems will be compared and contrasted, a internal and external. The conflict in each poem will be explored. All this through the translation.

For example:

[ah, damn, database malfunction, great translation lost forever.]

 

[Gerard K H Love]

It's all greek to me.
J.T. you are obviously writing to one or two very specific people who speak Portuguese and English. It does not make much sense posting it here but rather find the appropriate linguist and send them a private message. I have been told Potuguese is a beautiful language, one of the romance languages, isn't it?

 

[cirerita]

All I see here is a Strange Pertinacity.

 

[JTParreira]

Pertinacity? Greek?

I don't think so. All this has been a contribution to a conversation about translations and the Buk, who is beyond any intellectual conversation.

αυτό είναι ελληνικά (Greek is this).

J.

 

[Gerard K H Love]

If you, the linguistic scholar that you are, want to translate Bukowski, then you need to be familiar with our expressions. Of course this is all Greek to you.

 

[cirerita]

Here in Spain we say "it's all Chinese to me." ("me suena a chino", which is the same as "it's all greek to me.")

Amigo Parreira, eres un ser obstinado donde los haya. Todo lo que cuentas no viene a cuento ;)

It's All Chinese to You, Yes.

 

[roni]

HA!
cire, funny thing is, in German it's:
"That sounds like Spanish villages to me!" ("Das klingt für mich wie spanische Därfer") - really! no joke.
(there's also 'Spanish' used in another context: "That looks Spanish to me." - "Das kommt mir Spanisch vor." - This means: "That's very strange to me.")

But, we have that 'Chinese' thing too. Only, in our case, the expression goes the other way 'round: You use it, when some other person don't understand (or ignores) what you say - "Do I speak Chinese, or what?!?" ("Spreche ich Chinesisch oder was?!?")

 

[JTParreira]

[ah, damn, database malfunction, great translation lost forever.]

Puro engano da "database", a grande tradução não se perdeu, is published for good and all.

 

[Bukfan]

All I see here is a Strange Pertinacity.

Perhaps our friend takes the Buk quote, "Endurance is more important than truth", a bit too literal. :D

Here in Spain we say "it's all Chinese to me." ("me suena a chino", which is the same as "it's all greek to me.")

Here we say, "It's pure Volapyk to me" (Volapyk being an artificial language like Esperanto, but never as successful as Esperanto)...

 

[Ponder]

I think the new Portugese member is a good guy.
Why don't we split this thread and start a serious topic
about Buk translations?
This can be an interesting topic for some buknet members.

 

[roni]

Portugese [...] Buk translations [...] This can be an interesting topic ...

Great idea, Ponder!
(though it May be to late to save this special person now.)

I don't see, why we shouldn't have people here, giving translations, even in uncommon languages, (even bad translations maybe). It sure fits the subject. (if there's a problem with that, remove it to the 'All things Not Buk'-area. But I'd say, this is a little more on-topic than what we had for dinner.)

I, personally, am Not interested in Portugese translations of Buk, good or bad. But I do think, this is a topic for this site.

Sure, I also see mjps point: we don't know, what is said in those 'translations'. But still ...

 

[mjp]

Puro engano da "database", a grande tradução não se perdeu, is published for good and all.

How dare you! You will hear from my lawyer, sir, just as soon as I translate that!

 

[Ponder]

I'll take all of you to court!

 

[mjp]

If you guys want to do translations -- well I was going to say I don't care, but if I'm being honest, I do kind of care. I just don't want them here. I don't want to quash anyone's fun, but I just don't think this is the place. I have enough trouble reading English.

You know, my personal bias is toward English for obvious reasons, and not to be a dick or a xenophobe, but I'm not terribly interested in attracting hundreds of non-English speakers to the forum. It starts with translations, then there are conversations, then a separate forum for Spaniards, one for Slavs, Maori, Icelanders...where does it stop? This isn't the united colors of Benetton for chrissake! ;)

Those of you who speak English as a second or third language contribute quite a bit to the forum, and I appreciate that. But I just want everyone here to be able to read your contributions. I don't want to start fracturing things into language ghettos. Or language grottos, alcoves or secret societies...

 

[hank solo]

I'd suggest we can have a thread to discuss the subject of translation, in English, and if anyone wants to show off their own translated poems they use their own website or blog and promote it via a snappy signature.

 

[Gerard K H Love]

You both are right....as usual.

 

[marina del rey]

--> for all those around who know German a little better than Portugese: HERE is this beginning.

I know I'm tossing another translation into the mix, but this one is translated into English, so I hope its relevant for all my fellow anglophones.

My German isn't great, and I'm sure there are plenty of others here who do this much better, but here is a very rough translation of the first page of the German version of Hollywood . The English version is missing this beginning.

Roni is right - it is a much better start than the English version.

 

[JTParreira]

I think the new Portugese member is a good guy.
Why don't we split this thread and start a serious topic
about Buk translations?
This can be an interesting topic for some buknet members.

Thanks, Ponder.
I think the translation of BUK's poems in other languages is the best way to disseminate his work.

But enough for me.

 

[roni]

That's cool marina!
I didn't know we have so many people here who know German!

 

[mjp]

I think the translation of BUK's poems in other languages is the best way to disseminate his work.

Well you have a flair for the obvious, that's undeniable. It's also obvious that anyone who is here and speaks Portuguese is already familiar with Bukowski's work, and for the rest of us, the translations are meaningless.

Which is why I have tried to say, so many times, that this is not the place for them. No one is saying, "go away JTParreira!" You are free, as is everyone, to contribute. Just not translations.

 

[JTParreira]

Okay.Obviously I will respect the objective of the Forum and its rules. I am free, but polite as far as I can be. I will contribute otherwise, without translations of poems by Bukowski.

 

[homeless mind]

It's All Good - Regardless of Language

I'm going to start translating Bukowski from English into American. :eek: ;)

 

[Bukfan]

I know I'm tossing another translation into the mix, but this one is translated into English, so I hope its relevant for all my fellow anglophones.

It's very relevant! Well done, marina del rey, and thanks a lot...

 

[Ponder]

I'm going to start translating Bukowski from English into American. :eek: ;)

If you don't have anything to say, homeless mind, you better keep the dumb jokes to yourself.
Thank you.

 

[marina del rey]

I tweaked a couple things in the translation after discussing it with a native German-speaking friend. (Thanks Roni!)

(Mods: Please feel free to replace the attachment in the original post with this one. Thanks.)

 

[homeless mind]

If you don't have anything to say, homeless mind, you better keep the dumb jokes to yourself.
Thank you.

"...you better keep the dumb jokes to yourself." - Ponder

Interesting choice of words, tone. One may consider it threatening. But a gentleman such as yourself wouldn't threaten another over mere humor? So let me explain what happened, kind Sir.

You'll have to forgive me. My email must've been slow. I recently got copied on the moratorium relating to "what some members may consider dumb jokes." However, it was a blind cc, so I'm not sure if everyone received it. Because, Sir, I do not walk alone in the dumb jokes category on this site.

In the future, I will attempt to screen all my writing with the mods, prior to posting, as this is the safest way to ensure the literary quality (especially jokes) dispersed at BUKnet. I was almost under the assumption that I live in America, and the first amendment is in force here, at BUKnet. You know, that little thing called freedom of speech (which, I understand, includes all types of jokes, too: funny, fat, dumb, lazy, hilarious, mischievous, smart, bad, pornographic, cough-your-beer-up-through-your-nose, et al).

In closing, and all, er, joking aside, I did PM one of the mods here, the big guy, whiteboarding about multilingual translations. Why? Because I'm for it. Speaking semi-fluent Spanish, and having travelled around the world (including the beautiful country of Portugal), it would intrigue me -- so I'm in favor of it, at an international forum such as BUKnet. However, I do understand the big guy's concerns, and agree with his and the other mods' thinking.

Pax

(BTW: One could argue English is translated into American, or, plain English; ever read Cliff Notes? What's even more humorous, if that "dumb joke" line was written by a non-American, it could be perceived as negative towards Americans -- a put down. Funny, eh?)

 

[Gerard K H Love]

In Turkey they had an expression, which my 13 year old Turkish friend translated as, "You are being too much". I think it works here but let me dilute that to, would you please relax and calm down.

You get that with all of the love and peace that goes with it. I still liked the Steinway poem.

 

[homeless mind]

Does that mean I haven't secured your vote for class president?

My attempt at humor fails again. Alas, I will never be a short story writer or a novelist. Let me add to that list, I will never be a humorist either...

That post was all in good fun...no animosity here, mi amigo!

:D

Pax

 

[Gerard K H Love]

Yeah, I get that, but it's almost like explaining a joke while you tell it.

You could be class clown if you like.

 

[homeless mind]

To The Real Point

Back on topic.

As stated, I like the idea of having multilingual translations here. Being semi-fluent in another language, I would enjoy testing my reading skills. This is an international forum, so it would be cool and educational.

However, I respect mjp's and the other mod's POV that it may be unmanageable.

Pax

 

[Gerard K H Love]

Excellent point.

 

[cirerita]

I don't think unmanageability is the key factor here.

 

[mjp]

What is the key factor?

 

[cirerita]

Maybe this?

...I'm not terribly interested in attracting hundreds of non-English speakers to the forum. It starts with translations, then there are conversations, then a separate forum for Spaniards, one for Slavs, Maori, Icelanders...where does it stop? This isn't the united colors of Benetton for chrissake! ;)

And the fact that the main English forum would weaken somehow?

 

[Johannes]

It's a bit senseless. I mean, given the fact that there would be a large group of foreign speakers speaking the same language and they wanted to exchange translations, chatter, whatever ... you could think about it, although, as dumb as that may sound, it would seem a matter of impoliteness: Coming here, to an original US-forum, this would automaticly exclude all the others.

But as it is now, there isn't even a group of people sharing one language here. It's people from all over the world, all different languages. So there is no danger of being suspected as xenophobic or whatever ... it's perfectly understandable. I wouldn't handle it any different, managing any kind of forum.

If I want to write and read German, I go to a German forum. If I`d like to exchange opinions concerning, let's say, Weissners translations in lenght and based on many specific quotes etc. with, let's say, roni, there'd be pn and mail. Doing this kind of thing here or even wanting to do so, seems senseless to me, and, I'll say it again, kind of rude.

 

[mjp]

Maybe this?

...I'm not terribly interested in attracting hundreds of non-English speakers to the forum. It starts with translations, then there are conversations, then a separate forum for Spaniards, one for Slavs, Maori, Icelanders...where does it stop? This isn't the united colors of Benetton for chrissake! ;)

And the fact that the main English forum would weaken somehow?

I don't understand your comment (if you're implying that I ever said, thought or suggested any such thing, you are mistaken), so I'm not sure what you mean. But the part you quoted points out why it would be unmanageable.

Who's going to moderate the Portuguese forum? And the Spanish forum? And the German forum? Please bear in mind that this whole enchilada is my responsibility no matter who the moderators are. So how do I know when someone is threatening to murder someone else's family because they disagree about pop bands? How do I know when the Poles are trading copyrighted video? Or the Nigerians are posting tips for fleecing naive Westerners?

Get it? I, me, mjp, need to know what's going on, because when the FBI comes, they come for the idiot who's name is on the domain, not the rest of you. (If you think that's far fetched, I've had the FBI show up at my home in San Pedro, and Scotland Yard show up at my job in Pasadena, and those are only two of about half a dozen lovely issues I've had to deal with federal agents over. And I wasn't even personally involved in any of them. They were related to a business I ran. So I'm here to tell ya, that kind of nerve wracking hassle ain't far fetched, it happens every day).

So since I'm responsible, I'm going to oversee. Logical, yes? And seeing as I'm not as educated as some of you may be, I can only oversee a community that speaks English.

* * *

I will now open the floor to questions, though I myself will be leaving for the evening, so you'll have to answer them yourselves.

 

[slimedog]

If I were, to say, invent my own language would it be possible to have my own forum, one that only I could converse with myself, since I would be the only one that would understand it?

I promise to moderate myself well and I believe you would be safe from any persecution from the authorities as they would be unable to translate it. It is also to my understanding that it is not illegal to threaten oneself.

It will take me several weeks to formulate my new language so take your time in thinking about this. Until then, zyogoots efur.