well, I guess I'm in trouble... (1 Viewer)

[Johannes]

What Matter Most is How Well You Walk Through the Kangaroos.

My recollection, Johannes, is that in Austria people do not admit to being religious, but when it comes down to it, they still are very investedin the church - things like birth, death, and marriage, the church runs the show. Not only that, but I seem to recall that in Austria a portion of peoples' taxes actually go to the church - a fairly big portion, even. Time will tell if they younger generation actually man up and let those churches decay, or whether they will continue to finance institutions that they claim not to believe in. Here in the states, churches get tax breaks, but the general public is not obligated to finance them.

That's true, but you've only got to pay church taxes as long as you are a member of the (catholic) church. That's the turning point for a lot of people I know, who are agnostic anyway but slide along out of laziness or whatever. When the first letter of the church arrives, asking their income and demanding to pay, they quit.

There is a nice piece of prose by Nietzsche somewhere, forgot where, but it's about him waking up to the sound of some church bells and thinking: "Can this be true? That's the sound in honor to some guy who allegedly lived 2000 years ago and claimed to be the son of god, proof still missing, and who did some little magic tricks ..."

 

[Skygazer]

As a confirmed 'Darwin-lover' I do believe that God is a man made creation - not vice versa, (kinda pinching a quote by Camille Paglia there but leaving out 'the greatest creation') But I do kind of get a bit fuzzy over Jesus, sure he was totally
delusional, with a God Complex almost the size of a lead singer with a rock band - but not quite.I like to think of him as a rebel and a radical, have no beef whatsoever with what he preached, but have to admit haven't studied the Bible to be anyway an authority.Do have a major beef with organised religion and religious dogma, wish I could reconcile these two things.

 

[Danny Mac]

All I can tell you is that organized religion is a bunch of crap. I went to Catholic school for 3 years so I got to see what it was like on the "inside." Little kids got the crap beat out of them, me included. All Catholic school kids have horror stories. You can see the Catholic church shriveling on the vine right now. Schools are being closed every few years in and around Philly. The money is drying up because level headed people no longer believe all the nonsense they preach. When I was kid at school and we had to walk from one building to the next they told us to stay in line and walk slowly. The nuns told us that if we walked slowly we would get less wet. So I believed them. I was in 2nd grade. It took two of my older brothers to teach me that that was a bunch of crap. Did I mention the smell of vomit in the halls all the time from kids puking from all of the stress from the nuns rein of terror.

 

[Bruno Dante]

I think Christopher Hitchens pretty much nailed it when it comes to religion.

 

[5:28am]

When I was kid at school and we had to walk from one building to the next they told us to stay in line and walk slowly. The nuns told us that if we walked slowly we would get less wet.

I don't understand. Was it raining or was something more sinister happening...?

 

[Skygazer]

I think Christopher Hitchens pretty much nailed it when it comes to religion.

Hard to disagree with him isn't? and I don't; religion is based on a delusion and it does rule through fear and coercion. It's all about bureaucratic survival and paranoia to any challenges/opposition.
But Jesus (and I feel a bit embarrassed writing about this) real or otherwise seems the opposite of all that, being anti-establishment and rejecting wealth and power, and fake 'holiness' and hypocracy, so basically wish I could just make up my bloody mind once and for all and reject the whole lot. Guess I just like bad boys and rebels too much.

 

[Bruno Dante]

I think given the authorship of the Gospels (or the lack of knowledge regarding who wrote them and when etc.) it's pretty difficult to get assess what Jesus was like. Even given that though, as you point out, what we are told about him doesn't seem to tally up with organised religions like the major churches. So yeah, he was ok, I suppose ;)

 

[Skygazer]

Aaaawww Newcastle, you secret Jesus lover, you'll have to keep that in the closet, just like me.

Erm, bit misleading that, I didn't mean you kept me in the closet too, should have wrote that better.

 

[mjp]

Funny that we have historical records of plenty of less magical and supposedly revolutionary people from two thousand years ago, but no historical record of this Jesus fellow. Outside of that book.

Anyway, this sums the whole thing up:

 

[bospress.net]

Yes, some people (myself included) do NOT believe that jesus was even a real person. This is called the "jesus myth theory" which is different from the "christ myth theory" which posits that jesus lived, but was not christ. The jesus myth thorey takes the opinion that no one that was written about int he bible as "jesus" ever existed and that he was a piece of fiction that has no basis in reality. I think that he was a made up story from the beginning.

This is not a widely held theory, but one that does not stop me from feeling like it is right.

 

[Black Swan]

That's pretty much all I've heard!

 

[Danny Mac]

I don't understand. Was it raining or was something more sinister happening...?

Sorry about that (5:28 am). Yes it was raining. I suffer from Senior moments sometimes or maybe it's because I took too much acid in the 80's.

 

[Black Swan]

You could never take too much if the nuns got to you first. :fog:

 

[Skygazer]

Be all that as it may . . . now that we're all highly intelligent beings with logic and science and reason on our side instead of superstition and fear.Does it matter if he was real or not? - it will never be proven either way, some of his (or attributed to him) teaching and radical views are historically important, all the propaganda stuff about miracles and whatnot, leave them aside, it's was just showbiz to pull in and wow the audiences. I agree with a lot of the teaching, but all the God stuff and afterlife - no.
I really enjoyed watching the Jonathan Miller series: a follow on from A Rough History of Disbelief, it was The Atheism tapes, with 6 episodes, talking with a selection of people including Arthur Miller, Stephen Weinberg, Richard Dawkins etc; This is the first episode, there all on Youtube:

 

[mjp]

some of his (or attributed to him) teaching and radical views are historically important, all the propaganda stuff about miracles and whatnot, leave them aside...

The "teachings," such as they are, could be important, but they are not, seeing as they aren't sold separately. The people who believe them believe the entire bat shit enchilada.

One of the foundational concepts of every cult is a good sprinkling of common sense and wonderful peace philosophy, which makes the control bits go down easier. And Christianity and all it's bible-believing offshoots are definitely cults. They meet all the definitions.

 

[Gerard K H Love]

I hate to piss on your parade but until you experience divine intervention-Which can come about from being ultra positive as well- you have no idea what there is super naturally . Now that statement alone will provoke gallons of piss in my direction but I can only consider the source.
Yes, most plastic Christians are quite annoying-including some of my family but the real ones do not tell you they show if you are not blind. Don't worry I am nothing to concern yourselves with. Like always.

 

[Gerard K H Love]

The funny thing to me is very likely someday, maybe 2000 years from now, people could very well interpret Bukowski's writing as some type of Gospel- of course possibly the censored versions after fanatics take everything over. There is a pure truth in his words, some of them, anyway.
We hear everything and remember what we want.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

but I can only consider the source.

The source is your peers; albeit a cross-section that is not typical of mainstream America. Are you trying to suggest that "the source" (us) is somehow a group of people who are not as good as you?

Don't worry I am nothing to concern yourselves with. Like always.

This is a typical "crucified" position. In the past, I have personally enjoyed reading your posts here, but now, I must consider your agenda in every post. Why has it come to this? Doesn't your faith give you strength to deal with heathens such as we are?

 

[Gerard K H Love]

Well Mr. Martin you are reading a bit too much into my post. Please keep it simple, you know I love all of my friends here even though we are not always on the same page. Nor do I assume any superiority towards anyone, except for one or two of the trolls.

 

[Skygazer]

The "teachings," such as they are, could be important, but they are not, seeing as they aren't sold separately. The people who believe them believe the entire bat shit enchilada.

I know and that's the scary bit. Even if on excavation, some amazing irrefutable evidence of Jesus' existence came to light, it still for me, would not change a thing, it wouldn't prove the existence of god.If he was anything he was lefty radical preacher and possibly one of the first pro women's lib at a time when women were treated as one up from slaves.
What really annoys me is the hijacking of him by the religious right, I don't think he would spend a second in their company, that's the terrible irony. But your right in that you can't separate the two things.

 

[5:28am]

God is an all-powerful kid with a magnifying glass that likes to burn ants.

The "teachings," such as they are, could be important, but they are not, seeing as they aren't sold separately. The people who believe them believe the entire bat shit enchilada.

Agreed. It's too much crazy for my puny brain to absorb. I could delude myself into believing X, but not x + y + z... ad infinitum. Plus, there's the bible teachings that seem to outright contradict themselves, which is another hurdle entirely...

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Well Mr. Martin you are reading a bit too much into my post.

I read too much into everything. Vive la difference!

 

[Short Bus]

It's not god I have a problem with-just his fans

 

[Black Swan]

It's because the fans are real!

 

[Bruno Dante]

I think Lord Buckley also made a lot of sense of the subject of worship and who it should be aimed at:
http://pevz.org/post/1147212905/the-great-lake-of-love-that-holds-the-whole-world-in

 

[Skygazer]

It is the fans that are scary. During my student days, I made friends with the girl in the next room. She was from a very strict religious background I think they were the Plymouth Brethren? She was always telling me I was going to hell because I didn't believe and she was serious. She pleaded with me to go along to one of their meetings, before we went on out to the pub etc. one night. It was dire, never seen so many Mercs and BMW's in my life, they were a bunch of creeps, and it was all about obedience etc.
Her dad would visit every week so she would hide her stuff in my room, Hi Fi, TV etc, as they were banned, The ironic thing is she always went wild when we went out, blaming us. We had a party one night, she ended up jumping out of our first floor lounge window( for a joke) onto the flowerbed below, luckily she only broke her wrist, next day her dad came and took her away. Bumped into her about 5yrs ago at the train station, she had very quickly been married off to one of them, never got a career, she looked so unhappy and wistful as we laughed about stuff, it made me really sad to see her, why the hell did she go along with her dad's control.

 

[Bruno Dante]

I went out with a Catholic girl when I was at university. The rumours are true ;)

 

[chronic]

Yes, some people (myself included) do NOT believe that jesus was even a real person.

The first half hour or so of this film has an interesting explanation of where the Jesus myth was plagiarized from (Horus) as well as the origins of the symbolism of many religious teachings. Definitely worth watching.