Creative writing - and bass players. And drummers. (1 Viewer)

[Purple Stickpin]

I think the live shows, at least in part, suffer from a lack of sonic depth, and you can tell better from Wetton's bass in what I linked to. Wetton's bass was a monster in the better recordings I do have, so the lack of timbre in the viddy I posted certainly affects Fripp's tone adversely. But I'll spare you the studio version.

But that middle section is a common complaint from those who aren't overly familiar with Crimson. The point of it all is to build tension; and it's not two notes, it's unison passages of several notes spaced out over the four times through the changes. By the final pass, the whole band has ramped it up.

After the fourth pass, it interludes, then the frenetic section is a double-time recapitulation of the middle section (in 13) with 4/4 breaks at the turnaround. The dearth of tone you refer to in the middle section may also be a purposeful interjection to more greatly highlight the distorted madness of the recapitulation. The point of the tune in general is to paint a stark reality, as it were. You can't have brutal intensity without its antithesis.

 

[mjp]

You seem to be suggesting that I think the middle of that song is shit because I don't understand it, which is insulting (but it did make me laugh).

 

[Purple Stickpin]

That was written after 2 AM; almost anything I'd have written could have been construed as insulting. Let me put it this way: when played live, that guitar part may not have sounded quite as crappy as the recording suggests. Then again, Fripp chose that tone for a reason, which as a listener, is good enough for me.

Without getting overly philosophical about the song (but I will), at the point this song was coming together, Fripp was very close to disbanding the band and possibly quitting music altogether (source: online diary entries and CD liner notes). My belief is that the song Starless is about Fripp's journey in music and his current future state within the industry.

The first part is early success, dazzling day, dreamy and melodic (if somewhat forlorn, presaging what is to come). Second part, with the lame guitar sound, reflects the banality of his current state within the industry, and the third, crazy part reflects what is soon to come - the breakup of his band (likely for good is what he seemed to think at the time) and his departure from music.

So if it sounds like crap, it may have been because he wanted to reflect feeling like crap.

I realize that this reads as total apologist for Fripp. But he's got great tone in so many other pieces of that era that it's hard to imagine him choosing a thin sound for any reason other than it was transmitting what he wanted to transmit.

 

[mjp]

So it is Fripp's Ein musikalischer Spaß. Why didn't you say so? ;)

Fripp chose that tone for a reason, which as a listener, is good enough for me.

Only because you already respect him, otherwise it might not be good enough for you.

Prince chooses his tones for a reason too. But since you don't respect him because he's black as a guitar player, you aren't inclined to think any of his guitar playing is worthwhile.

To you, the middle of that song is very deep and meaningful. To me it's just bad "music." Problem is, we're both right. As Woody Allen said about fucking his wife's adopted daughter, "The heart wants what the heart wants."

Or something.



The black thing is a joke fer chrissake, calm down. I'm only here to amuse myself. If I lived in Boston I'd probably hate black people too.


Still kidding, still kidding! Put down the gun...

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Only because you already respect him, otherwise it might not be good enough for you.

True. But I shouldn't have said that the tune was about what I proposed, because Fripp didn't write it. So, the words mean something to Richard Palmer-James, who worte them, but I get the sense that Fripp mirrored his experience in the music industry against the words, so it came to mean something like I proposed to him.

Not sure of the relevance of the rest of your post.

 

[d gray]

If someone can't lay down a steady back groove, then they aren't a drummer to me,

i've heard him say this before but from the gospel of wiki -

"Copeland is also noted for his strong emphasis on the groove as a complement to the song, rather than as its core component. He once drove this point home at a drum clinic: Copeland announced that he would show the audience something "that very few modern drummers can do," and proceeded to play a simple rock beat for two minutes."

 

[mjp]

Not sure of the relevance of the rest of your post.

Oh, maybe you don't remember discussing Prince.

As for Prince, I find his music horribly annoying, and his thin guitar playing is the only chance he had for me to redeem himself; instead, he buried himself deeper with his mask of ability. So, the fraud comment is solely related to his thin, fake guitar tone.

I'm relating your defense of Fripp to your disdain for Prince. In comedy that's known as a "callback." It's really an art form in itself. Among comedians.

See, to me, the only time Fripp did anything remotely different was when he made those vinyl sleeping pills with Brian Eno. And there was nothing remarkable about the guitar, specifically in that music, or in any of the music he's ever made. He's always played within accepted norms.

That's the subjective view of someone who thinks Fripp is vastly overrated. Just like your view of Prince. My conclusion that both are valid opinions was the point. You will never convince me that Fripp was extraordinary in any way, and I'll never convince you that how Prince's guitar sounds isn't the point of his music. And that's fine.

Because I know that an objective comparison of the two leaves no doubt as to who was/is the most musically forward, risk-taking, influential and talented. Fripp is not in Prince's class, musically. You can compare them as guitar players all you'd like, but as I suggested in the original post about Prince, that is a small part of the whole. Like discussing Mozart's technique as a pianist.

The Woody Allen quote is relevant because taste in music is just like love. You might see two people walking down the street and wonder what she sees in him, or what he sees in her. But to them, it makes sense. We don't all have to like the same music, we can't all like the same music.

I find no resonance in your excuse for why Fripp's guitar sounds like a 13 year old picking out her first guitar in a music store in that video because I don't go in for analyzing rock and roll too much. If that is rock and roll. Great music is all about emotional response. When you dissect things that have an emotional impact on you, you destroy their ability to have any continuing emotional impact on you. Like taking apart a joke to determine why it's funny. Once you do that, it isn't funny anymore.

You've played on records, right? When you listen to them, do you hear the music or do you think about what you did in that certain part, or what kind of beard the engineer had? It's like that. Too close. Ruins everything.

Thank you for your kind indulgence.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Oh, maybe you don't remember discussing Prince.

Of course I do. I was referring to the relevance of your "humor" as to why I don't like him. Perhaps relevance isn't the right word.

 

[mjp]

My "humor" is an acquired taste, and I understand it isn't for everyone. It isn't even for me, sometimes, but I'm stuck with it.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Notwithstanding all that, your previous points aren't totally off the mark. Well...

He's always played within accepted norms.

If that were the case, Porcupine Tree and The Mars Volta would be Top 40.

Logically, it would follow that

I have to say I've never heard anyone make a Les Paul sound worse than that.

is now the accepted norm?

You will never convince me that Fripp was extraordinary in any way, and I'll never convince you that how Prince's guitar sounds isn't the point of his music.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. And I am fully aware that Prince's guitar sound isn't the point of his music. The problem for me is, that's the only thing that has a remote chance of making it listenable, and it fails. For me.

Because I know that an objective comparison of the two leaves no doubt as to who was/is the most musically forward, risk-taking, influential and talented.

If I cared so much about such things, my musical tastes would be bound to the philosophy and execution of said philosophy by the musician rather than by the end product. The only musician that sways me this way is Dylan. In some ways he's much bigger than his music. And listening to some of his stuff is part and parcel of who he is and what he was when he was doing it.

Fripp is not in Prince's class, musically.

We can certainly agree on that point. :rolleyes:

 

[Short Bus]

That this Darryl Hall Fripp collaboration sounds a lot like Prince.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

That's vastly overrated.

I've been reluctant to post additional musical examples, but since you set the precedent.

Here's an example of Fripp's acoustic work that adheres to the "accepted norm:"


I thought this was a fun thread about creativity and then, bassists and drummers. My hackles tell me I should go away. My frantic brain tells me otherwise.

 

[mjp]

this Darryl Hall Fripp collaboration sounds a lot like Prince.

Prince who? Sounds like dogshit to me.

no doubt Purple Rain will result as an example of how high school angst is so very important to us as adults...

A) Rock and roll is not for the adult part of you. B) Purple Rain? Is that all you got? You realize that's a soundtrack, right? Even as a soundtrack it's got two wickedly original songs on it, Darling Nikki and When Doves Cry. Original in the context of 1984. "Original" meaning nothing else on earth sounded like them at the time.

Prince - like Mozart and Bob Marley - was an amalgamation of his influences, filtered through the lens of a gifted musical communicator.

I get it, you love King Crimson. If you consider them to be wholly original and groundbreaking though, I don't see it. The world was lousy with progressive rock in those days, and now it's all gone. You don't hear it anywhere. Because it didn't change anything. If just existed, then it died. RIP.

But I heard a great record today, a Beatles bootleg of studio recordings from 1966-1967. Now those motherfuckers were out on the edge doing things no one ever heard before. I got the record from a King Crimson fan, oddly enough. ;) Thank you!

This is better than everything we're talking about here anyway:

 

[Purple Stickpin]

Glad you like it and glad to have a healthy argy bargy. It's good for the soul, don't you know.

 

[mjp]

I more than liked it, I'm indebted to you for turning me on to it. And yes, if we all agreed on everything, there would be no point to any of this.

 

[d gray]

I thought this was a fun thread about creativity and then, bassists and drummers. My hackles tell me I should go away. My frantic brain tells me otherwise.

there's nothing wrong with an intelligent argument. it was an interesting read.

reminded me of when i was a teenager a friend who was a crimson fan bought "exposure" thinking it would be
like crimson. didn't know wtf to make of it. we'd go around screeching the title track - "expoooooosurrrrre"

but i always remembered and still like this one.


i saw KC on the 3/perfect pair tour in 84 (i think) and it was amazing.

 

[esart]

A few things from me...

I still can't find the live Crimson vid that I like the most, but when I think about it, it may not had been live! It had their live type set up with projections and such, but it may have been done in a studio. And I can't remember the song either, dammit! But I did find a later clip that was at least entertaining, as 80s as it is. The band is so happy and are genuinely having a good time. You can see that. I used to love listening to this repetitive stuff as a young person, but then again, I also listened to the metronome for fun too.


I wanted to also point out the Fiona Apple song mjp posted and how it is Prince inspired whether she is aware of it or not. Whether anyone is aware of it or not. I mean, sure - he didn't invent putting a melody over a simple drum beat, but you have to admit, it's fucking genius. When Doves Cry wasn't the top-selling single of 1984 for no reason. This is something Prince does a lot in his writing, that works every time, I imagine because he is both a drummer and a melodic instrumentalist. I won't pick apart any more than that, but wanted to point out that he has influenced more musicians that have come since him than probably any other musician I can think of, just as Stevie Wonder and his influences made impact on him.

By the way, both of them are on my favorite drummer list. ;)

 

[mjp]

he didn't invent putting a melody over a simple drum beat, but you have to admit, it's fucking genius. When Doves Cry wasn't the top-selling single of 1984 for no reason.

It's difficult to hear that song as groundbreaking now since it's so ingrained in the pop music lexicon, but it was really a jarring experience to hear it for the first time. "When is the bass going to come in? Oh, I guess never." Someone at Warners said, "We can't put this out as a single, there's no bass guitar on it!" Prince just said, "It didn't need bass." Might seem trivial now, but it was unheard of at the time.

he has influenced more musicians that have come since him than probably any other musician I can think of...

Well that's the thing, isn't it? Popular music (at least "urban," a.k.a. funk/R&B/soul music) sounded one way, then Dirty Mind and Controversy came out, and practically overnight all of pop music sounded like a Prince record. That's not an exaggeration, and it's hard to fathom now so long after the fact. But I can tell you that when Thriller came out, we all listened to it and said, "Well, that's funny, Michael Jackson thinks he's Prince now." That's how pervasive the change and influence was.

Not to mention that Prince usually had half a dozen bands out in the world all playing music he wrote, produced or recorded himself. He was very prolific in the early days (still is to a lesser extent), and the amount of good music he made is mind-boggling. Of course being that prolific also means he made a lot of not-brilliant-but-only-okay music, but it all had his stamp.

 

[Short Bus]

I like crimson better with Belew and Levin. They brought fun into the music. I've seen Belew solo and with Crimson once and twice with the Bears. The only connection to this Crimson and the early Crimson is the name and Fripp of Course. I've seen The League of Crafty Guitars tour too. I also got shit faced with the bus driver of Porcuopine Tree in Quebec City. I'm a prog fan of because of Fripp.
That Said
When working in the record store I used to put the promo copy of Dirty Mind on every time a guitar player would walk into the store.
Eventually they would ask who is this and I would say Prince-some would say that fag? Others would say really and realize they had found there own black swan.

The reason I'm writing this and the reason I posted North Star (it's not over rated it's just under rated by you) is that I hated Darryl Hall until I heard that song. That song made me realize that theres more here to hear-this guy can sing!! and that me liking or disliking a song or genre before actually taking the time to listen is robbing me of a lot of fun and more importantly good music-that may make me a better musician.

PS You're a bass player so I'm surprised you dismiss Prince cause to me that means that Larry Graham George Porter and Bootsy on whom shoulders Prince sits are part of that dismissal. Cue up Sign O the Times and write back-it will be fun.

 

[mjp]

Larry Graham George Porter and Bootsy on whom shoulders Prince sits...

He has to sit on their shoulders in order to have a face to face conversation with anyone.

Rimshot!

Get it? Get it? Because he's really short...

Thank you, goodnight!

Not for nothin', but I saw Prince play bass for the Time one night, and it was slammin', yo. Another night he played drums behind the Time all night. And by all night, I mean all night. For almost three hours. Hard drummer, man. Hard.

There were some great shows at First Avenue back in ye olden days.

 

[d gray]

Not for nothin', but I saw Prince play bass for the Time one night, and it was slammin', yo. Another night he played drums behind the Time all night. And by all night, I mean all night.

wow! were they surprise appearances or did you know he was gonna be there?

 

[Purple Stickpin]

And I foolishly thought I could quietly sneak away from this thread with no further feather-ruffling. Everyone was happy...:eek:

The reason I'm writing this and the reason I posted North Star (it's not over rated it's just under rated by you)...PS You're a bass player so I'm surprised you dismiss Prince cause to me that means that Larry Graham George Porter and Bootsy on whom shoulders Prince sits are part of that dismissal. Cue up Sign O the Times and write back-it will be fun.

My comment:

That's vastly overrated.

Was a sarcastic response to this post:

That's the subjective view of someone who thinks Fripp is vastly overrated.

So, let me put it this way: I recognize that Prince has a boatload of talent and I’ll admit that I don’t have any broad exposure to his work. But my general sense from what I have heard is that it tends toward the flashy (but not style over substance, because there is substance), tends toward a synthesizer-heavy sound, and is more geared toward production (i.e., a choreographed performance rather than something more improvisation-oriented). Maybe I’m wrong, I don’t know. I don’t want to paint with a broad brush; this is just my experience. But improvisational music is where I've been at for 30-odd years. I doubt that's going to change. The aspiration of never playing the same song twice the same way is such a refreshing concept to me. Sadly, this concept is not easily swallowed by many.

I’m someone who really likes a fairly small subset of music. Not narrow; I’m more or less equally enthralled by Dylan, Mingus, and Schoenberg. But I really, really don’t like a very large amount of music. I can’t articulate this very well, but I know it when I hear it. What I like I embrace like a pit-bull, and what I don’t like, well, you see where I’m going. To me, there’s little point in being ambivalent about much in life.

But as a musician, this is a dangerous place for me to be. I shouldn’t be critical of fellow musicians, especially those who have had 1,000% more success than I have. So, I want to state that I can indeed separate talent from personal taste. There just happen to be a large number of very talented musicians that aren’t to my personal taste. But my opinion of them should be as meaningless as this post.

Lastly, this post does not refer in any way to Larry Graham, George Porter, or Bootsy.

 

[mjp]

wow! were they surprise appearances or did you know he was gonna be there?

Prince didn't play scheduled shows in Minneapolis clubs very often, even before he became well known, so I suppose most of the times I saw him it was a "surprise" show. But they could probably more accurately be called unannounced shows, because if you wanted to know when he was playing it wasn't too hard to find out. And you could always assume he'd be playing if the Time were booked (or any of his hundred other bands, or Sheila E., etc.).

The shows I'm talking about were all in '80 or '81. He didn't play those kind of loose shows much after 1999 came out. He still did "surprise" gigs here and there, but they became so packed that it wasn't any fun anymore.

 

[Stavrogin]

It's just too bad Fripp isn't from Minnesota. Heh.

 

[d gray]

Prince didn't play scheduled shows in Minneapolis clubs very often...

you lived there i guess?

btw i finally found and heard his demo for manic monday - which i'd been dying to hear him do - and was SO
disappointed to hear appollonia singing lead.

man, she sounds extra bad when you're not looking at her.

 

[mjp]

I lived there, yes.

I don't think Prince choose a lot of the women who sang in his groups based on their vocal talent. Musicians is a different story, but singers... His current band is all women, and they are a solid enough rock outfit.

 

[esart]

man, she sounds extra bad when you're not looking at her.

Hahahahaha!!!! That's so funny! You got that right. mjp too.

I was going to say, about Prince, not Appollonia, and for Purple Stickpin (if you ever get a chance to hear it), I used to practice to Madhouse 8 religiously after it came out, and I swear it became my sort of "secret weapon." I never told anyone I was doing that as a regular, daily meditation, but that is how I honed my particular feel and style. I didn't copy it exactly, but I definitely used it as my foundation. Madhouse 16 is just as amazing with Sheila E on drums, but Prince and John Lewis play drum tracks on that record as well. You can tell the slight differences. Knowing Prince, he probably demanded a certain feel from Sheila. I've seen and heard her play a lot and she can almost pull off the same meter Prince does, but she still has the Latin vibe - still, all good, just not the same as funk. Nevertheless, I've never seen anything like it - Sheila E playing live with Prince.

I don't believe she was on speed either, but she managed to play a 3 hour show once. This was the Alphabet Street Tour. There was a trampoline bed in the middle of the stage. Kat was dancing and singing backup, as was Sheila from behind the drums, but during songs Sheila also ran out from her set, danced with Kat, sang while jumping on the bed with Prince and Kat while playing percussion instruments, ran back to her drums and finished songs - and did this many times during the show, plus a few long drum solos, back to dancing, etc, etc... and her playing was better than any drummer I had ever seen. So in the pocket the whole time! I was floored because I wasn't all that impressed with her playing when I saw her previously. I thought she was really good, but not Steve Gadd good. But she IS.

And that Madhouse 16 will give you a little taste of that if you are into a kind of acid jazz vibe. Maybe straight up FUNK jazz. Wikipedia says "jazz-fusion" but that makes me think of the Yellowjackets or Marcus Miller or something like that, but it's more uppity. The only warning is that the snare, the sax, and even the trumpet are all recorded "hot."

Anyway, I was going to talk about meter, but I'm just starting to feel like I'm lamenting down memory lane and starting to sound like a crazy cat lady.

OH--and I should figure out a way to insert my story about seeing the Prince and Miles Davis art show in NY. How do I do that? And who else likes Miles Davis?

 

[mjp]

she managed to play a 3 hour show once. This was the Alphabet Street Tour. There was a trampoline bed in the middle of the stage. Kat was dancing and singing backup, as was Sheila from behind the drums, but during songs Sheila also ran out from her set, danced with Kat, sang while jumping on the bed with Prince and Kat while playing percussion instruments, ran back to her drums and finished songs - and did this many times during the show, plus a few long drum solos, back to dancing, etc, etc...

The Lovesexy tour. I was probably at the same show you were. I saw it here in Los Angeles and in Minneapolis (when I coincidentally happened to be there - I wasn't following Prince around the country like some kind of hippie). I seem to recall that Price and some of the other musicians also shot some three pointers into the basketball hoop and backboard that was there on the stage for no apparent reason during that show, yeah?

Of all the Prince shows I've seen, that tour was heaviest on the spectacle, but the music was still flowing uninterrupted the entire time, as you pointed out. I'm not a big fan of musicians doing choreography, but you have to be pretty damn good at what you do to pull that shit off.

The Madhouse records are crazy, but not easy to find. They were never made on CD, so you'll have to dust off the Victrola if you do find them. Hearing those might make you a convert Purple Stickpin.

 

[Skygazer]

Don't have the knowledge to add properly to this debate, but I absolutely love Raspberry Beret, it seems pared down and clear? compared to his other stuff. That would definitely be a desert island disc.... so to speak.

 

[Purple Stickpin]

...and for Purple Stickpin (if you ever get a chance to hear it), I used to practice to Madhouse 8 religiously after it came out, and I swear it became my sort of "secret weapon." I never told anyone I was doing that as a regular, daily meditation, but that is how I honed my particular feel and style."

What I'd like to hear is some of your recorded material. No doubt you developed a very singular style in that genre. That's a big undertaking in terms of a drum style, and the hours of work must have been huge.

And who else likes Miles Davis?

Miles did as much as any jazz musician in shaping the medium and changing it radically more than once. I dig Birth of the Cool, but my favorites of his are with Tony Williams and Ron Carter. My Funny Valentine is a brilliant live album. Bitch's Brew is totally blowing up the genre. More than most any "fusion" efforts from true jazz players, this features interactive improv, not just solos. A major departure from most "progressive" stuff, which, almost incomprehensibly, sticks to the solo/comp formula that is both the trademark of more traditional jazz and it's predominant shortcoming.

The Madhouse records are crazy, but not easy to find. They were never made on CD, so you'll have to dust off the Victrola if you do find them. Hearing those might make you a convert Purple Stickpin.

Well, I found this:


And little else, so I gave it a listen. While it is clearly challenging music played by excellent musicians, it's not my cup o' chai. While I should leave it at this, of course I am compelled to explain why:

1. It's slick and sounds composed as opposed to improvised (not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, per se, but it sounds the way Prince looks). But to me, jazz should contain a significant improvised component.
2. It doesn't take risks. The only risks apparent in this piece are those indicated by the lead sheet. But musicians of their caliber, with adequate practice and rehearsal time, can nail their part 99% of the time.
3. It's somewhat lacking in dynamics. While it is not in your face, it's only a few feet from your face most of the way through.
4. Like too much '80s music, it sounds overly-compressed.
5. It's got washy synthesizers. Talk about music making your teeth hurt.

So, it is a group of excellent musicians executing a challenging piece of music to near perfection. The problem for me is, I just don't want to listen to that.

 

[mjp]

So, it is a group of excellent musicians executing a challenging piece of music to near perfection.

Actually it's two musicians; Eric Leeds, the saxophone player, and Prince playing everything else.

That track is a little tame. When I characterized Madhouse as "crazy," I was thinking more along the lines of stuff like this or this (which are from the second Madhouse record, 16). The whole project isn't really my cup of anything, but since Carol brought it up...

It suffers from 80s production values for sure, but you'd be hard pressed to find a pop record from the middle of the 80s that doesn't. Which is one of the reasons it was such a useless decade for music.

Prince and Bukowski share the same problem, that being they were sometimes too prolific for their own good. Their work, as a whole, also falls along generally similar lines; 15% crap, 80% better than just about all of their contemporaries, and 5% transcendent.

 

[esart]

I'm embarrassed about most of "my" recorded material.

Here's one, but I'm playing along with a loop:

 

[esart]

Okay, THIS is really funny. I thought I'd do a check on YouTube for some old band songs and someone made their own homemade video to one of our songs that I co-wrote. I don't quite understand the selection of pictures for the song, but you can hear the drumming and some song writing. I am NOT responsible for the awful coronet farting.

I wrote the chorus and the bridge, not the verses. I named it as well. I co-wrote it with my guitar player - in fact, it was immediately after I lent him Love is a Dog From Hell. He became a Buk fan from that time forward and we'd occasionally write together after that, but we wrote this song on the morning he finished reading those poems. Like from out of a movie he came speeding up in front of my place, ran up my steps with his guitar with a new lease on life, and excitedly asked me to break out my poetry books. I told him I didn't write like Bukowski, but he didn't care. He finally found some kind of use for me and wanted me to shed my darkness on something.