how long do you let your paintings dry before you varnish?
David Barker - Death at the Flea Circus from BoSP (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter bospress.net
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how long do you let your paintings dry before you varnish?
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
These I let dry between 4 days and a week. I used Retouching Varnish, which allows the oil paint to continue to dry over time (it breathes so to speak). If you use a regular varnish, you have to wait at least 6 months for the painting to dry before you varnish. I hadn't varnished an oil painting since the early 1970s. I did it on these paintings for the Bureau Edition because it felt and looked right, and I wanted to use the same methods I used back then, when the book was written. I love the way the varnish looks. It livens up the colors, makes the paint look as fresh as when it was wet. Much richer looking.
David, good call! I think varnish is a good move. I don't know the exact format for the bureau edition but I guess it is sort sort of box. Movement and handling of paintings leads to wear so varnishing protects the paintings to a degree. Varnish also unifies the picture surface, something handy when you have a mixture of matt and gloss on a picture, different textures and materials etc. So aesthetically and practically speaking, varnishing is a wise choice.
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
You must be painter, Joseph K. I'm just relearning these things. I hadn't oil painted in years. It can get quite technical, compared to water colors or acrylics, which I find interesting. At first I just went to the art supply store and bought a bottle of regular varnish for oil paintings, but when I got home and started reading about how to apply it, realized the paintings wouldn't have time to completely dry (6 months at least), and that I would need to use a Retouching Varnish instead, so I returned to the store and exchanged it. It's kind of fun playing with these materials. I like the slow, deliberateness of oil painting. Lots of time between layers to think about what you're doing. The need for paint to dry before you go over it with a different color layer makes you take your time. I have 6 more paintings to do, but three are already half done or more, so I really just need to come up with three more ideas. I may do another of a single parakeet (instead of a pair of them). I like how that first parakeets picture came out.
I should mention that all the photos I've posted are of unvarnished paintings. They look a bit flat compared to the final, varnished versions.
I should mention that all the photos I've posted are of unvarnished paintings. They look a bit flat compared to the final, varnished versions.
does retouch varnish lose it's varnish sheen after awhile? i've never used it.
you could mix a dryer with your paints to speed up drying time. liquin is good - non-yellowing and
available in different consistencies etc - gloss, gel for impasto etc then you could use proper varnish
without the long wait.
but like i said i've never tried it, so i may be full shit...
you could mix a dryer with your paints to speed up drying time. liquin is good - non-yellowing and
available in different consistencies etc - gloss, gel for impasto etc then you could use proper varnish
without the long wait.
but like i said i've never tried it, so i may be full shit...
mjp
Founding member
Varnish is the first thing they remove from old paintings when they restore them, keep that in mind. You know, if you are painting for future centuries, as I'm sure everyone is. Contemporary oil painters don't use it much anymore.
Speed isn't really supposed to be a consideration when you're working in oils, but I know the reality is sometimes it has to be. Certain colors of oils dry slower than others as well, with most yellows taking the longest. Living with an oil painter you learn some of these things by osmosis. But only some. In fact the above may be the extent of my knowledge on the subject, but possessing a limited amount of knowledge has never stopped me from chiming in on any other subject.
Speed isn't really supposed to be a consideration when you're working in oils, but I know the reality is sometimes it has to be. Certain colors of oils dry slower than others as well, with most yellows taking the longest. Living with an oil painter you learn some of these things by osmosis. But only some. In fact the above may be the extent of my knowledge on the subject, but possessing a limited amount of knowledge has never stopped me from chiming in on any other subject.
well, they need to remove the varnish in order to get to the painted surface to restore. once that's done,
they would re-varnish with a contemporary varnish - ie one that doesn't darken and yellow with time
like the old stuff did.
a big problem can be if the painting had been varnished without enough drying time. then removing
the varnish can remove/damage the paint itself.
i'm not sure about contemporary painters varnishing less. it still serves a very important function which
is freshening up the colors after they've dried and become relatively duller. it also protects it from
atmospheric damage.
does carol varnish her paintings?
see ya got me started.
they would re-varnish with a contemporary varnish - ie one that doesn't darken and yellow with time
like the old stuff did.
a big problem can be if the painting had been varnished without enough drying time. then removing
the varnish can remove/damage the paint itself.
i'm not sure about contemporary painters varnishing less. it still serves a very important function which
is freshening up the colors after they've dried and become relatively duller. it also protects it from
atmospheric damage.
does carol varnish her paintings?
see ya got me started.
Thanks, David. I know a bit about painting.
Retouching varnish degrades as all varnish does - but very slowly. And the point about varnish is that it is a clear protective coating which is not integrated to the paint, so can be removed without affecting the paint and new layers can be applied. There are various reasons why varnish fell from favour (aesthetic, practical, the use of impasto (thick paint)) but there are good conservation reasons for using it and I think that if painters don't have a technical or aesthetic objection (and remember there such a thing as matt varnish) then it should be used more often by them.
The problem with speed is that oils need to dry before damar varnish can be applied and with impasto that can be almost never. I think David's idea is a smart compromise, considering buyers of the B. ed. version don't want to wait 6 months for their copy.
Retouching varnish degrades as all varnish does - but very slowly. And the point about varnish is that it is a clear protective coating which is not integrated to the paint, so can be removed without affecting the paint and new layers can be applied. There are various reasons why varnish fell from favour (aesthetic, practical, the use of impasto (thick paint)) but there are good conservation reasons for using it and I think that if painters don't have a technical or aesthetic objection (and remember there such a thing as matt varnish) then it should be used more often by them.
The problem with speed is that oils need to dry before damar varnish can be applied and with impasto that can be almost never. I think David's idea is a smart compromise, considering buyers of the B. ed. version don't want to wait 6 months for their copy.
mjp
Founding member
No. And yes, you can see the variations in the surface of the paintings - different amounts of reflection depending on the paint and the thickness. But to me that's part of the work.
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Mjp -- you're right about some colors taking longer to dry. The red I'm using takes forever. It's still a bit wet after about 2 weeks. Good thing I didn't use it much, nor on all the paintings. I was reading there are fast, medium and slow versions of most colors, depending on the chemistry of the pigment. Something I'll keep in mind when I buy new paints. About old varnish -- the really old stuff does seem to yellow badly, or even turns brown. I checked a couple of paintings I varnished in the late 60s/early 70s and the varnish is still very clear and the color good. I must have lucked into using quality varnish (I'm sure I was clueless about it). The retouching varnish I bought is very light and clear. Not cheap: $10 for a small bottle. It's a quality brand and should last a long time with no problems. Not sure really how long I let the paintings dry as I've finished them at different times -- could be up to two or three weeks, but at least 4 days on the one I finished last before I varnished them all as a group.
Started a new painting today. I like the one I did of the two parakeets, so I went back to that subject: this time one parakeet, closer up view, he's sitting in a window in the bombed out apartment, with Carpenteria beach in view behind him. It's coming along well. I seem more at ease with the oils now, like I almost know what I'm doing.
Started a new painting today. I like the one I did of the two parakeets, so I went back to that subject: this time one parakeet, closer up view, he's sitting in a window in the bombed out apartment, with Carpenteria beach in view behind him. It's coming along well. I seem more at ease with the oils now, like I almost know what I'm doing.
Hosh
hoshomccreesh.com
Just posted at Goodreads:
"The book is every bit the equal of the fascinating story behind it. Written 40 years ago and left virtually untouched for decades, Death at the Flea Circus is a yarn one part dirty Brautigan, one part Sherlock Holmes procedural, and one part surreal, comic, almost Sci-Fi time-travel. Or maybe it's just that, like the dusty manuscript forgotten in a drawer, the story doesn't concern itself deeply with chronology. Or narrative, necessarily. The exacting and wildly inventive language of Brautigan is prominent here--not as a nostalgic tribute, but rather elbow to elbow as a contemporary; and the story belongs very much to the experimental schools made popular in the decades since it was written. What we end up with is a book wholly of another era, and yet timeless in the way that all fine writing is--a book that teaches us that the journey is the destination."
Now, Dr. Barker, where can I get some laudanum for a future re-read? Thanks for a fine book!
"The book is every bit the equal of the fascinating story behind it. Written 40 years ago and left virtually untouched for decades, Death at the Flea Circus is a yarn one part dirty Brautigan, one part Sherlock Holmes procedural, and one part surreal, comic, almost Sci-Fi time-travel. Or maybe it's just that, like the dusty manuscript forgotten in a drawer, the story doesn't concern itself deeply with chronology. Or narrative, necessarily. The exacting and wildly inventive language of Brautigan is prominent here--not as a nostalgic tribute, but rather elbow to elbow as a contemporary; and the story belongs very much to the experimental schools made popular in the decades since it was written. What we end up with is a book wholly of another era, and yet timeless in the way that all fine writing is--a book that teaches us that the journey is the destination."
Now, Dr. Barker, where can I get some laudanum for a future re-read? Thanks for a fine book!
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Update on the deluxe edition oil paintings: Bill has the first four, all varnished and dry. One other has been done for weeks but I've been waiting for its red part to dry. I completed four more paintings last Saturday, and those have been drying, so I thought maybe I would have five dry and ready to varnish today (Thursday.) I did a careful check and three of the five had red parts that are still wet (including the one that has been drying for three weeks at this point), so I only varnished two of the five completed paintings today, and one of those had tiny red spots that smeared a bit when I spread the varnish, but I was able to clean the brush and brush out the pinkish smear. It seems like all my colors dry in three or four days except red, which takes forever. At this rate, I won't be able to varnish the three that are completed but still drying until the weekend after this coming weekend. Makes me think I should avoid red unless a painting has a long, long time to dry -- like months. I'll post photos of the new paintings later. I still have one painting that is not yet begun - number 10. That's the last of the deluxe edition paintings. I'm happy with all of them so far. Red is a slow bitch.
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Five new oil paintings for the deluxe edition of Death At The Flea Circus. The first two are varnished, the rest are not (yet.)
The final painting -- not shown -- is 2/3rd done. It needs to dry a couple days, then gets more work. The unvarnished ones above just need to have their red parts completely dry (jeez...that sounds biological, "red parts") and then they get varnished. Varnishing is wildly fun. I can't imagine not doing it to an oil painting, now that I've tried it. Not only looks good, but protects the painting's surface, and it's just so much fun to do. The down side is that varnish can yellow after many years, although it hasn't happened yet to a couple paintings I did about 40 years ago.
The final painting -- not shown -- is 2/3rd done. It needs to dry a couple days, then gets more work. The unvarnished ones above just need to have their red parts completely dry (jeez...that sounds biological, "red parts") and then they get varnished. Varnishing is wildly fun. I can't imagine not doing it to an oil painting, now that I've tried it. Not only looks good, but protects the painting's surface, and it's just so much fun to do. The down side is that varnish can yellow after many years, although it hasn't happened yet to a couple paintings I did about 40 years ago.
Black Swan
Abord the Yorikke!
Good job, David! Love the Laudanum and the Score!
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Thanks, Black Swan. The Score tube took some research. I finally found a 1960s TV commercial for Score Hair Cream on Youtube and it has a couple close ups of the tube. They were clear enough for me to sketch out the basic design, but in Black & White, so I made up the colors. I actually used that stuff in High School. It was clear and not greasy.
By the way, I talked with my younger brother today and he remembers that I took the trip to Goleta with my pal and his dad late in my last year of high school, or in the summer just after graduation, so that dates much of the narrative of Death At The Flea Circus to 1966. Just in case you were dying to know. And, he remembers something I'd forgotten: that we distributed some of our privately minted lead coins in Goleta. That's a big subject, the lead coins. I'll save the details for another post. We made the coins from 1964 through 1966, I think, so the dates are right.
By the way, I talked with my younger brother today and he remembers that I took the trip to Goleta with my pal and his dad late in my last year of high school, or in the summer just after graduation, so that dates much of the narrative of Death At The Flea Circus to 1966. Just in case you were dying to know. And, he remembers something I'd forgotten: that we distributed some of our privately minted lead coins in Goleta. That's a big subject, the lead coins. I'll save the details for another post. We made the coins from 1964 through 1966, I think, so the dates are right.
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Really, Jordan? How long were you there? And what I'm really aching to know: do you happen to know the names of any older hotels there, that might have been in business in the 1960s? I don't mean old brick 1890 style hotels, but modern, mid 20th century motel style hotels. The one I stayed at was perhaps three or four stories high, with a big swimming pool in the center. Don't know if it was in Goleta or Carpenteria (if Carpenteria is even a town -- it may just be a beach). I'd love to find some photos of that hotel. Aside from that, what's Goleta like these days? Still small and sleepy and isolated? I could Google it and find out a bunch I'm sure, but I can't spend all my time at a computer. Well, I could, but that's no life...
jordan
lothario speedwagon
carpenteria is indeed a town, immediately on the opposite side of santa barbara as goleta. i lived in santa barbara and worked in goleta for 2 years - it's pretty nice, but it has all the modern trappings of mid-to-upscale suburbs, including big commercial parks filled with franchises and chains, and stuff like that. if you go up into the hills, it's probably pretty similar to how it was 40 - 50 years ago. alas, i'm not much of a resource on hotels - whenever my parents came to visit me there, they stayed at a best western, which is about all i know.
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Sounds like the place probably has changed a lot since I was there, although, as you say, up in the hills it may be the same. It's kind of funny that I've published a novel set there and know almost nothing about Goleta and the beach at Carpenteria. Even funnier if someday people go there looking for Crux and Dram streets, and the old warehouse that was turned into the Flea Circus. None of which were ever really there. Which reminds me. I should make a map of the Goleta of the book. There are four or five streets mentioned in the book, and several stores, businesses, residences. It could be like one of those fanciful maps in the front of fantasy novels.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
that would look pretty letterpress printed....
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Yes, it would. Actually, I already have a rough draft for it. I sketched out a crude map with a few streets on it so I could make up a reasonable address for The Mannikin, when I was typing postcards for the deluxe edition. I can build on that, add some sites, come up with a better sketch.
Count me in for one of those - I really dig maps (and the book). Just don't tell me that they're for the bureau edition only!
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
nope. If I do it, it will not be in the Bureau Edition.
Bill
Bill
Sending PM on logistics.
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
Purple Stickpin, as I said in my PM, I like your ideas for the map, and I'm on board. I'll let you and Bill work out the details on logistics, while I'll focus on drawing up the map. Once I have a rough draft (well, less rough than the first draft), I'll post an image here and ask for help from readers on what I should add, what looks wrong. I've read the book four times lately, but I'm sure some of you will have picked up on details I'm forgetting, that could be used in the map. Thanks...
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
I'm getting some good ideas for map features. Street names, character homes, sites of various scenes. Oddly, the last of the oil paintings is of a small compass -- began before the map idea came up. It's a 19th century compass that my dad owned, brass in a wood case, about 2 inches square and maybe half an inch thick, with brass hinges and a clasp.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
The first 2 Bureau copies shipped today. Jeez it is a lot of work. I hope to have more copies in the mail in the next few days. I ran out of the correct color bookcloth.
Bill
Bill
number6horse
okyoutwopixiesoutyougo
Taking a break at p. 65 because I don't want this story to end. And that hasn't happened in a while for me.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
I felt the same way. I solved the problem by reading it a second and third time...
Rekrab
Usually wrong.
I hope my other novels will have the same effect on people. When they're published. No one has any trouble putting them down now because there's nothing to pick up yet. It would be terrible if this is the only book I ever write that has that effect, and the rest are slogs. I have no idea if that is or isn't the case. Time will tell. Thanks for the kind words, guys.
bospress.net
www.bospress.net
My friends at Lead Graffiti shot these photos and made them beautiful with Photoshop.
Here is the Bureau Edition. Some copies are brown in the inside and some are tan...
Here is the Bureau Edition. Some copies are brown in the inside and some are tan...
