The senseless, tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by John Martin’s Black Sparrow Press (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter mjp
- Start date
There is also a letter to Carl Weissner (January 15, 1979) in the On Writing collection (which I'm reading now). Buk writes that, re: Women, "John Martin and I are at it - I claim he has inserted too much of his writing into the novel.... I really feel he has changed my wordage too much, sometimes every other sentence...." And there is lots more.
It's irritating, maddening and sad. Thankfully, the truth about Martin and his "editing" is out now!
It's irritating, maddening and sad. Thankfully, the truth about Martin and his "editing" is out now!
It's been out for quite a while. For anyone who wanted to see it, that is.
This thread started it all for me.
Kudos to Olaf.
Kudos to Olaf.
mjp
Founding member
It's been discussed here pretty much since the forum started, and even before that, when the Bukowski.net stuff lived on a different site. People have been talking about it for a long time, even pre-Internet.
I think it was changes/improvements to the database here (or just the database itself) that made the scope of the problem a lot more evident, along with the availability of easily searched electronic versions of the poetry collections. Those things kind of go hand in hand with making more of an issue of it in the past couple years.
Generally speaking, the Internet is responsible. It's more difficult to keep secrets when the amount of available information increases as dramatically as it has in the past 20 years. Those invested in keeping secrets (of all kinds) didn't see that coming, so there's been a lot of disruption, to use a term Internet geeks and marketers are so fond of.
I think it was changes/improvements to the database here (or just the database itself) that made the scope of the problem a lot more evident, along with the availability of easily searched electronic versions of the poetry collections. Those things kind of go hand in hand with making more of an issue of it in the past couple years.
Generally speaking, the Internet is responsible. It's more difficult to keep secrets when the amount of available information increases as dramatically as it has in the past 20 years. Those invested in keeping secrets (of all kinds) didn't see that coming, so there's been a lot of disruption, to use a term Internet geeks and marketers are so fond of.
mjp
Founding member
Pogue Mahone's scan of "writer's block" in the "find what you love..." thread had me searching the poetry collections for "jabbering," which brought me to "an empire of coins," which was in both The Roominghouse Madrigals, and Betting on the Muse.
The changes start at the title, which is de-capitalized in Betting on the Muse, and they continue from there. I'll include the changed lines here, but I think the point is, I've had Betting on the Muse on the list of "safe" books, but that was based on only 12 manuscripts.
Judging by this single poem though - that was previously published by Black Sparrow, so we can safely assume that it was not rewritten by Bukowski - I think Muse belongs on the dirty list.
These are the differences:
The changes start at the title, which is de-capitalized in Betting on the Muse, and they continue from there. I'll include the changed lines here, but I think the point is, I've had Betting on the Muse on the list of "safe" books, but that was based on only 12 manuscripts.
Judging by this single poem though - that was previously published by Black Sparrow, so we can safely assume that it was not rewritten by Bukowski - I think Muse belongs on the dirty list.
These are the differences:
Jesus. Funny how "little" changes so completely water-down that poem. What a pathetic need he had to denigrate Hank's work.
the only good poet
One retreat after another without peace.
https://bukowskiforum.com/threads/an-empire-of-coins.873/
I read B. back-to-back. I lost interest on Bone Palace Ballet.
I read B. back-to-back. I lost interest on Bone Palace Ballet.
Just to stir the pot a bit, An Empire of Coins, even as it appears in Roominghouse, is a heavily-changed (I wouldn't even call it edited; it's almost a complete rewrite) of Information Upon and Empire of Coins from Renaissance 3 from 1962. So, there's a case of what clearly looks to be Buk reworking his stuff. Certain key lines were retained in the Roominghouse version as they were crafted originally, which makes the recent edits all the more disappointing.
mjp
Founding member
I'm not sure it's clearly a Bukowski rewrite (we can't be clear on anything anymore without a manuscript), but that seems more likely than a rewrite between Roominghouse and Muse.
My gut tells me it's a Buk rewrite; therefore it is. I have spoken. :wb:
Furthermore, and more importantly, your skepticism flies in the face of every salient point you've made over the past three-odd years regarding this issue. To suggest that JM's edits to the Renaissance 3 version could have resulted in the Roominghouse version doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not sure you're saying that, but I can't envision another scenario.
Furthermore, and more importantly, your skepticism flies in the face of every salient point you've made over the past three-odd years regarding this issue. To suggest that JM's edits to the Renaissance 3 version could have resulted in the Roominghouse version doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not sure you're saying that, but I can't envision another scenario.
Last edited:
mjp
Founding member
All I'm saying is that nothing is clear where these changes are concerned.
This particular poem made me doubt Muse because all I had to compare it to was Roominghouse. Now with this originally published version (which I haven't gone over line by line yet), both Black Sparrow versions have to be considered questionable. Why? Because we have very few examples of Bukowski manuscripts that indicate a rewrite after publication (actually, none that I know of, but for the sake of argument...).
As for the idea that me being open to the possibility that there are non-Bukowski changes in Roominghouse being somehow contrary to what I've said before, I'm pretty sure that I've never claimed that the earlier Black Sparrow collections are all 100% faithful to his manuscripts (or the first publication of the poems). We know they aren't. It's a matter of the scale and pervasiveness of the changes when compared to the posthumous books.
Anyway, I'm always open to being proven wrong about anything. I would welcome being proven wrong about this (by a rewritten manuscript dated after the first publication of the poem), because that would mean we'd have some evidence of something that we don't have any evidence of now. Evidence is always better than opinion.
Pogue Mahone
Officials say drugs may have played a part
Honestly guys, after reading the July 11, 1970 letter from Bukowski to Carl Weissner on the Post Office edits in "On Writing", my thoughts have shifted a bit. (Not to mention the July 11, 1966, letter to the Webbs).
(I'd scan the letters, but Able deserves what is due to him).
It seems Bukowski knew he was dancing with the devil with Martin from the beginning of their relationship. I didn't realize it actually went this far back. Now that I do, it doesn't surprise me about what happened. Even when he was still alive, I seriously doubt Bukowski was going to challenge Martin on the Roominghouse poems -- if Bukowski even bothered to read the book line-for-line, which I doubt.
The truth to me at this point:
Martin fucked with Buk's writing the entire time and ruined a lot of beautiful lines
Buk protested to a certain degree
City Lights published Buk without edit
To spite Martin, Buk kept sending his stuff to all kinds of small mags until his death -- who didn't edit a word
Did Buk deserve this? Hell no. Did he know it might happen? He wasn't an idiot...
(I'd scan the letters, but Able deserves what is due to him).
It seems Bukowski knew he was dancing with the devil with Martin from the beginning of their relationship. I didn't realize it actually went this far back. Now that I do, it doesn't surprise me about what happened. Even when he was still alive, I seriously doubt Bukowski was going to challenge Martin on the Roominghouse poems -- if Bukowski even bothered to read the book line-for-line, which I doubt.
The truth to me at this point:
Martin fucked with Buk's writing the entire time and ruined a lot of beautiful lines
Buk protested to a certain degree
City Lights published Buk without edit
To spite Martin, Buk kept sending his stuff to all kinds of small mags until his death -- who didn't edit a word
Did Buk deserve this? Hell no. Did he know it might happen? He wasn't an idiot...
Evidence is indeed always better than opinion, but it's not definitive proof, per se. But when I read the versions from Renaissance 3 and Roominghouse, I see the continuity of several key lines being unchanged and I see major reworking. Given what we've hypothesized about JM's changes, he was incapable of complete rewrites that would result in what is still an excellent poem in Roominghouse. The difference between the Roominghouse version and the BPB version is right in line with what we've observed. However, maybe this does go deeper, but the "known" examples of "One-Hour Martinizing" are inconsistent with the differences between Information on an Empire of Coins and the Roominghouse version of An Empire of Coins.
I'm not convince that it does, but I'm keeping an open mind. Frankly, that's a miracle in and of itself, so consider that you've accomplished something today. :wb:
Martinizing may not be as heavy and striking in 'Betting', but it had to be at least a little questionable for three reasons:
- it's a posthumous publication. Buk couldn't check and complain. That fits into the Martin-pattern of behaviour.
- it's most likely also a posthumous COMPILATION, meaning, when Martin started to work on it, Buk was not involved. (that assumption's based on no mentioning of any planned poetry-collection after 'Last Night' in Buk's correspondence).
- it's a fairly weak book.
Maybe not line-by-line, but the extreme difference in visual appearence alone would have struck him if it were unintentional.
I'm pretty sure, he was caring for this collection a lot, which I base on his preface for it, esp since he never cared to write a preface for his books (with the one exception of 'Burning' in the early 70s).
mjp
Founding member
Our definitions of "complete rewrite" must be wildly different. The changes I see between the original you posted here and the version in Roominghouse are unfortunate but typical. They are really not anything like a rewrite:
Original / Roominghouse
===================
20 oz. / 12 oz.
Cézanne / Dali
send / sent
Shakespeare rants and /
haven’t even shaved yet / haven’t yet shaved
said / say
beneath / inside
they snip and snap / rats snip and snipe
white / light
talking/
and / as
the dreamjump down / then dream jump from
real women and real men / women and men
like roaches nibbling at paper, automatic, feelers of inbred
helplessness, a false drunken God asleep at the wheel...
like mice nibbling at paper, automatic, while I slumber,
a false drunken God asleep at the wheel...
study it and put it away to sleep in abstracts.
study it and put it to sleep in the abstract.
is / has
thinking of Mexico, the rotten horses,
thinking of Mexico, of the decaying horses and dead bulls,
and Normandy, of the jabbering insane Japs
and Normandy, of the jabbering insane, of the Kamikaze
the / this
rotten / rotting
===================
20 oz. / 12 oz.
Cézanne / Dali
send / sent
Shakespeare rants and /
haven’t even shaved yet / haven’t yet shaved
said / say
beneath / inside
they snip and snap / rats snip and snipe
white / light
talking/
and / as
the dreamjump down / then dream jump from
real women and real men / women and men
like roaches nibbling at paper, automatic, feelers of inbred
helplessness, a false drunken God asleep at the wheel...
like mice nibbling at paper, automatic, while I slumber,
a false drunken God asleep at the wheel...
study it and put it away to sleep in abstracts.
study it and put it to sleep in the abstract.
is / has
thinking of Mexico, the rotten horses,
thinking of Mexico, of the decaying horses and dead bulls,
and Normandy, of the jabbering insane Japs
and Normandy, of the jabbering insane, of the Kamikaze
the / this
rotten / rotting
What's kind of funny is this all started as a criticism of Muse, but from the comparisons it would seem that Muse tries to fix some of the errors made in Roominghouse (returning "Shakespeare," the compound word "dreamjump," "inbred helplessness," etc.). While, of course, introducing other errors/changes.
What I take from all of this is that a pervasive carelessness was at work long before the intentional and methodical castration began. It was never good over there at Black Sparrow, it was never right. It was always lackadaisical and uncaring. And Abel's description of Martin's responses to his questions about errors (that he would wave off any mention of errors as if they weren't important) only reinforces that view.
So there's your great man. There's your champion of 20th century literature. Sitting in his chair counting paper clips and saying, "Who cares?"
This letter (translated into German) has also been published in Schreie vom Balkon (Hamburg 2005). It's revealing indeed, even if only half of it was true.
Yeah, we Germans have been lucky enough to find a big bunch of letters to Carl Weissner in the German edition of the BSP-letter-collections that haven't been in the Original versions. (We may guess why not, right?)
What do you mean with "original versions"? Bukowski was a German writer who has been translated into English.
I misunderstood what you were doing in post #208. I saw large portions of Information Upon an Empire of Coins missing from your Roominghouse version of An Empire of Coins. My statement about a complete rewrite was based on all that missing material, which was only missing because you intentionally left it out. Then I focused on the (apparently, to me at the time), more "minor" wording changes between the Roominghouse and Muse versions. So, carry on; I'm simply an idiot.
Or I could have simply cracked the books and done the leg work myself. Problem is, to do that, I'd have to fuel up the Lear Jet and get to my private bunker in NV only to realize upon landing that I'd forgotten the duplicate key to engage the cyborg prevention system (CPS). Meanwhile, I've got reading copies 20 feet away.
sorry if I wasn't clear here.
What I meant was: the Original versions of the books of letters (the 3 volumes by BSP) compared to the German version/ translation of these 3 books (in one volume), being 'Schreie vom Balkon', which - on the one hand - did not include all letters from said Original English versions by BSP, but - on the other hand - did include a big bunch of letters to Carl Weissner (translated by him of course), that were NOT in said 3 Original English books of letters by BSP.
PhillyDave
“The essential doesn't change.” Beckett
I can understand why letters to Weissner were added but help me out here. Why would a translation not include all letters from said Original English versions by BSP? Just a silly editors decision?
because it was only one volume to house the 3 Volumes by BSP.
It simply would have been too thick a brick of a book.
Also, unfortunately it's been common practise by Weissner to not translate whole books (of course he did with novels andmostly with stories, but never with poetry). All the German translations of Bukowskis poetry-books are only selected poems. (With the exception of 'Dangling' I think.)
It simply would have been too thick a brick of a book.
Also, unfortunately it's been common practise by Weissner to not translate whole books (of course he did with novels andmostly with stories, but never with poetry). All the German translations of Bukowskis poetry-books are only selected poems. (With the exception of 'Dangling' I think.)
PhillyDave
“The essential doesn't change.” Beckett
thnx. interesting.
It has been such a long time since I've logged into this site. I can't imagine anything worse than having someone edit Bukowski's work without his approval, and he certainly can't do that after he is dead. If you are correct, MJP, and I trust that you are, then I am doubly grateful to have the old copies of Grandfather's books that I have. Grateful to you for your work. Amber
And here I was worried Danny Mac was going to say something creepy...
Pogue Mahone
Officials say drugs may have played a part
I seriously doubt Bukowski read Roominghouse from cover to cover.
Brother Schenker
Founding member
Yea, apologies for only just now having come across this thread and the article it relates to...
Dude, thank you very much for bringing this to the world's attention. You wrote about it in an easy to read style. Good clean lines.
Mind, I am only venting here. The article and example of Martin's changes has infuriated me. I am not directing my comments at you, MJP.
My god, you people are way too kind about this issue. Bukowski wrote in one of his collected letters that he had caught Martin finger-fucking his work and said he "climbed him pretty hard for it". Bukowski was NEVER cool about Martin or ANYONE changing a single WORD. He was appreciative of spelling corrections, but not the changing of words.
A poem is like a fucken painting, do you understand? If you don't, you're not a poet, and that's that! How many art dealers told Picasso or Renoir or Dali to change something about a particular painting? How many dealers took it upon themselves to paint over or "touch-up" one of those dude's paintings?
Yea, I know Bukowski sometimes said he wasn't precious about his writing---or made fun of people who were, but he bloody well fucking was! It's true for any word-artist. Each word is a paint stroke, bitch! Neither Buk nor Henry Miller or Mark Twain or V. Nabokov ever saw their writing as a collaborative effort with some cunting editor! If you need an editor---THEN YOU'RE NOT A REAL FUCKEN WRITER. You're just an idiot dicking off with words like a baby playing with it's own poop.
Really, do you guys actually believe it is an editor's responsibility or right to molest someone's poem for any reason whatsoever? If you do, then you're not an artist. You have no backbone. You have no integrity. You're just a hack---a word whore. You don't give a damn what they do to your stuff just as long as they pay you for it.
Aside from the fine books he made out of Buk's manuscripts whilst Buk was alive, Martin sucked as a publisher. He got lucky and ran the business on the back of Bukowski's work. All his other authors wrote diarrhea drivel---especially Paul Bowels. And Fante ain't no great shakes, either, not in this day and age. I can see how he was a breath of fresh air back when Buk first consumed his books, but the thing is, Buk exceeded him and wrote better and so nowadays Fante reads like a cheap Bukowski-imitation!
Man, I thought it was really peculiar how oddly different the posthumous stuff reads but I had just chalked it up to a lack of inspiration with no lack of wanting to make that typewriter sing...It really sickens me that I consumed those Martin-tainted poems...
So is there a movement or action committee to correct all the Martin-molested poems and post them in their original form here at this website? Or is that gonna be a violation of copyright?
