What did Ginsberg make of Bukowski's writing? (2 Viewers)

I know Bukowski didn't really like the whole BEAT thing per se. He tended to distance himself quite aggressively from their hypster antics and group ethic. I was juts wondering if anyone had access to any 'essay' or 'article' with Allen Ginsberg making direct comments about Bukowski or vice versa...they seem surprisingly comparable yet millions of miles apart poetically.

I read somewhere that Ginsberg couldn't relate to Bukowskis work....Any thoughts or links you have on this people would be appreicated?
 
No one have any information on this topic?

Did Bukowski and Ginsberg ever meet? I'm sure I read something about them reading at the same place or attending some thing together....

Any information would be appreicated.

Personally: Ginsberg is overrated. A sign post for the beat era. A commodity poet. Like most poets....very interesting with words...but full of holes when living...
 
B wrote at least one review of Ginsberg work. I think it was published in Ole. He used to downplay Ginsberg stature as a poet, but strangely enough he praised him in "A Rambling Essay..."

And he used to misspell his name; Ginsburg was his favourite one :D
 
HI,
There is an essay on Allen in "San Francisco Book Review #21" published in 1971. I have it here. I could always try to scan it...

Bill
 
Olaf said:
Did Bukowski and Ginsberg ever meet? I'm sure I read something about them reading at the same place or attending some thing together.

According to Sounes Buk bio they met at a party after a benefit reading in Santa Cruz. The meeting takes up 2 pages in the bio (page 140-141). The source notes says the description of the meeting is based on Sounes correspondence with Ginsberg and on an article in the Berkely Barb...
 
Bukfan said:
According to Sounes Buk bio they met at a party after a benefit reading in Santa Cruz. The meeting takes up 2 pages in the bio (page 140-141). The source notes says the description of the meeting is based on Sounes correspondence with Ginsberg and on an article in the Berkely Barb...

You couldn't give a rough transcription of what those two pages reveal, could you Bukfan? I don't have the book and it would be good to see some words re this topic.

Of course, only if you can be bothered...cheers, Olaf. :)
 
In A.D. Winans book The Holy Grail: Charles Bukowski and the Second Coming Revolution he details a reading Bukowski and Ginsberg did together with one other poet, I think Ferlingetti(This may be the Santa Cruz reading Bukfan/Sounes refers to, I don't remember). During the reading there is a bomb threat made by phone, so Ginsberg goes out on stage and improvises a poem to let everyone know what's going on. I believe Winans has a quote from Buk saying how much he liked Ginsberg's improvisation, however at the party afterword Buk drunkenly insults Ginsberg(no suprise there). I will look tonight when I get home and see if there is anything about Ginsberg's opinion of Buk. I will post whatever relevant passages I find.
 
A quote from http://www.bukowski.net/poems/int-first.php says:

Kaye: What do you think of homosexual poets?

Bukowski: Homosexuals are delicate and bad poetry is delicate and Ginsberg turned the tables by making homosexual poetry strong poetry, almost manly poetry; but in the long run, the homo will remain the homo and not the poet.


There are other ref to Ginsberg by Hank, but I can't list them all tonight.
 
Alright I did some checking and I was actually thinking of the same passage in the Sounes bio as bukfan. The only thing we really get from Ginsberg's perspective is this:
"All the poets followed, after the audience left, and Bukowski looked at me and said, surprisingly, 'Ginsberg, you're a good man.' I was a little apprehensive he'd disapprove of me as 'academic' or a four-eyed queer, but he was agreeable and friendly."
As bukfan mentioned, the end notes for this passage state this info was based on correspondance between Sounes and Ginsberg before his death.

Hey is it me or does ESMoist's Avatar look strangely familiar?
 
Hi, Olaf. the Ginsberg quote skbruce mentions is all we get from Ginsburg. It would have been nice if we had got Ginsbergs opinion on Buk as a poet but we don't. Apart from that Ginsburg describes a scene were Buk is mocking him (surprise!) by saying "Everybody knows that after "Howl" you never wrote anything worth a shit"...
 
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There are one or two Ginsberg references in "The Night Torn Mad With Footsteps" poems and they are quite respectful and its obvious Buk dug AG.
 
In What Matters Most is How Well You Walk Through the Fire,
Buk mentions Ginsberg in the poem "4 Christs," but refers to him
as Ginsbing. There's a part where someone unnamed tells Hank
that "Ginsbing says he doesn't know how to relate to you."
 
in a letter from 'reach for the sun' p.32
buk mentions ginsberg wrote him,inviting him to read @1981 in new york.
so either allen or his university girl friend respected buks writing enough to
attempt getting an appearance out of him
 
reasonknot
i don't relate to ginsberg - a bit too intellectual - he had a message as did bukowski but seems to me the geography between their writing spans a planet - history lies at times and 'time' simply measures the mood of it's readers - as far as that goes...even a stopped clock is right twice a day - ginsberg & bukowski? the clock is still running...

rrat
 
... either allen or his university girl friend respected buks writing enough to attempt getting an appearance out of him

Am I parsing this above wrong, or are you saying that Ginsburg had a girl friend; and was that a "roll in the hay" type girl friend or Platonic? Because I thought I had it on good authority that he batted for the other team and wasn't a switch-hitter (or something). Yah.

SD
 
Ginsberg has been the most awakening force in American poetry since Walt W.,
A Rambling...,14

Ginsburg is a complete ninny running up the mare?s ass for the pussy of fame. He throws up a big smokescreen but his soul is the size of one grain of salt and will wash away in the first faint sprinkle
, Beerspit..., 222.

this is what disgusts me with the Ginsberg/Corso mob. they suck to the human adulation bit and are soon swallowed
. Screams..., 219

Corso? Ginsberg? maybe I am jealous of the big cats? they?ve got one thing I got ? clarity of style, but they?ve got a little too much the sweet tooth for their own soul (soul-importance) and they suck up a lot of bait.
Screams..., 245
 
then...we can all agree?
the horse is dead -

henry - the topic is interesting to me - i'd like to know more - ginsberg and i seldom resonate but...well - suffice to say i keep my mind as open as is possible for a man my age...a man having had a frontal lobotomy...(smiles)

damn! i swear i saw that horse move!
somebody shoot the critter!

rrat (in a fun frame of mind)
 
I'm pretty sure that most of the time Ginsberg liked Ginsberg and Bukowski liked Bukowski and sometimes they knew one of them was right in that opinion some of the time.
 
Bukowski probably didn't waste much time sitting around thinking about Ginsbing and his poetry. Ginsberg probably didnt think much about Bukowski either.
 
Yeah, Buk does review Ginsberg in an issue of Olé....It's been a while But I recall that he disparages him overall, says he's over-rated but still gives him a few begrudging compliments. One thing he does say is that Ginsberg is an indisputably a trailblazer.

For what it's worth, Billy Childish has a poem in "Poems Without Rhyme (etc...)" where he recounts that upon meeting Ginsberg, the latter referred to him as the "English Bukowski." If true, G was way off base!
 
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Something I wrote when the Ole piece was a little fresher in the bean:

"Issue 7 is a "Godzilla" review issue. Bukowski again makes a noteworthy appearance in the form of a review of Ginsberg's Empty Mirror. It's full of left-handed compliments but surprisingly appreciative. Despite the "asshole" image of Bukowski, he gives a fair review, dealing with the poetry and citing both weak and strong lines. All in all, it's honest. Ginsberg is disparaged, but within the context of being an undisputed trailblazer."
 
Something I wrote when the Ole piece was a little fresher in the bean:

"Issue 7 is a "Godzilla" review issue. Bukowski again makes a noteworthy appearance in the form of a review of Ginsberg's Empty Mirror. It's full of left-handed compliments but surprisingly appreciative. Despite the "asshole" image of Bukowski, he gives a fair review, dealing with the poetry and citing both weak and strong lines. All in all, it's honest. Ginsberg is disparaged, but within the context of being an undisputed trailblazer."

Can anyone get a copy of that out here for us to read?

SD
 
oh! I didn't know there was one, Bill...if only we had someone letting us know these things...
 
And got someone with a "beautiful smokey voice" to sing them! Like, I don't know...Kristin Asbjornsen or someone...
 
Thoughts on Ginsberg and Bukowski

For anyone interested in Ginsberg as a stand-alone poet and the workings of his mind, separate from any specific comments on Bukowski, or vice versa, I'd like to suggest getting your hands on "Voices & Visions: Walt Whitman." This is a VHS tape I happened to stumble upon at the community library. (It's out of print but may still be available at auctions or some libraries.)

The tape has a controversial interview of Ginsberg on his take of Whitman as the first "urban poet," and Ginsberg goes on to say that, in addition to his own abilities as a poet, he is Whitman's literary descendent, because Whitman was homosexual and Whitman slept with this certain guy, and many years later that guy slept with another certain guy, and so on, until that guy slept with Ginsberg"”voila!"”the "direct" literary descendent of Whitman through this historical series of sexual encounters (You coulda knocked me over with a feather.)

I bring this up not to be controversial but in reference to some of Bukowski's comments on the homosexual poets. I forget where, but Bukowski wondered, in some of his earlier writings (in the 1960s?), why it had been up to the homosexual poets, implying Whitman and not mentioning Ginsberg by name, to advance the development of poetry overall? Why were they the ones? This is his indirect acknowledgment of Ginsberg's influence on modern poetry, at the same time that Bukowski was saying, words to the effect, "well, what gives here?"

In contrast, I feel that Bukowski was trying to advance poetry from a different source, let's say, genderless, not just homosexual, perspective"”whatever that means. I believe Bukowski felt there was a need for this, and that's the point of view he was coming from, not being homosexual himself, but still aware of the impact of sexuality on someone like Whitman or Ginsberg, and feeling separate from that.

Now, the subject of a person's sexual persuasion on the creative process is a huge one, but even the great Bukowski, voracious and critical reader that he was, thought about it, and where he fit in, or wanted to fit in, or came from as an artist, to make his own contribution and advance modern poetry. His results, of course, were historic, but the problem is that Ginsberg was famous before Bukowski.

As for myself, I have enjoyed both Whitman and Bukowski immensely but was never a fan of Ginsberg. In "Howl", when Ginsberg talks about the "negro streets," I never forgave him for, to me, imitating his hero, Jack Kerouac, who had written more aptly before him about the "fellahin streets," and I felt that Ginsberg was not an original; he was simply writing in reaction to things, in a way that was derivative and overly self-important, being too aware of himself and his public stature as a poet. Perhaps I was unfair; but it's too late now, and I'd rather read Whitman, e.e. cummings, and Bukowski, not to mention a few others. Anyhow...

http://www.amazon.com/Voices-Vision...f=sr_1_12/103-0972268-7636668?ie=UTF8&s=video

Best wishes, Poptop
 
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...he is Whitman's literary descendent, because Whitman was homosexual and Whitman slept with this certain guy, and many years later that guy slept with another certain guy, and so on, until that guy slept with Ginsberg"”voila!"”the "direct" literary descendent of Whitman through this historical series of sexual encounters (You coulda knocked me over with a feather.)

Sort of like six degrees of ejaculation, huh?
 
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In A.D. Winans book The Holy Grail: Charles Bukowski and the Second Coming Revolution he details a reading Bukowski and Ginsberg did together with one other poet, I think Ferlingetti(This may be the Santa Cruz reading Bukfan/Sounes refers to, I don't remember). During the reading there is a bomb threat made by phone, so Ginsberg goes out on stage and improvises a poem to let everyone know what's going on. I believe Winans has a quote from Buk saying how much he liked Ginsberg's improvisation, however at the party afterword Buk drunkenly insults Ginsberg(no suprise there). I will look tonight when I get home and see if there is anything about Ginsberg's opinion of Buk. I will post whatever relevant passages I find.

I was at the reading in the Santa Cruz Civic Auditorium when the bomb scare thread was phoned in. At the time Ginsberg was sitting crosslegged on the stage playing a harmonium and chanting to the music. When he was informed of the bomb scare, he changed his text to an announcement of the thread, asking the audience to stay calm and to get up and walk out of the auditorium in an orderly way, which they did. The police came in and searched the building thoroughly. When they were done, the audience returned and the readings continued. Bukowski set up at a small table with a carafe of "orange juice" (screwdriver) and read some poems, including one about how disgusting pizza is. Linda King was among the poets; I remember her reading her poem, "A Cock": "What is it?/ It goes up, it goes down ..."

http://thedailybeatblog.blogspot.com/2012_12_01_archive.html

With me were some people I drove over to Santa Cruz from Stanford University: Joel Roberts, a part-time instructor, and 2 or 3 young undergraduates.
 
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